Ep30: Building Commercial Skills and Nurturing Human Connections at Work with Heather Orton
In this episode of the Human Wise podcast, Helen engages in an enlightening conversation with Heather Orton, a dynamic leader from South Africa renowned for her strategic insights and passion for human-centric design. This episode invites listeners into a world where curiosity and creativity lead the way, encouraging organizations to rethink business strategies for long-term value and sustainability.
Heather, currently steering the strategy and innovation for Parthen across Africa, unpacks her career journey which spans top global companies like KPMG and Accenture, as well as unique experiences with the royal household. Her diverse experiences have shaped her philosophy on the importance of being human at work, championing an environment that celebrates individuality and authenticity in the workplace. Heather shares her approach to leadership, emphasizing the power of empowering teams and fostering an inclusive work culture that embraces neurodiversity and personal challenges.
In a decidedly interconnected world, this episode explores the delicate balance between human-centric leadership and commercial adeptness. Helen and Heather discuss the necessity of commercial skills in today’s business landscape, highlighting how relationship-building and effective communication are integral to professional success. Heather reveals her insights into developing commercial acumen, drawing from her extensive experience in various commercial sectors and not-for-profit initiatives.
Perfect for professionals looking to enhance their leadership skills or those curious about the intersection of empathy and business success, this episode provides practical advice and thoughtful reflections on being more human at work.
Topics Discussed:
Human-centered workplace strategies
Consultant skills for business development
Impact of curiosity in leadership
Navigating commercial skills in careers
Relationship-building in business settings
Timestamps:
00:00 "Career Jungle Gym: Curiosity Driven"
03:27 Authenticity and Adaptability at Work
09:16 "Building Commercial Skills at Accenture"
11:47 From Relationship to Business Deal
16:07 Cultivating Relationship Skills Organically
17:20 Presenting: Skill Through Experience
22:21 Strategic CEO Roadshow Planning
24:48 The Power of First Sentences
29:45 "Reflective Listening in Conversations"
30:47 Effective Engagement without Nagging
34:48 Micro Habits for Incremental Growth
40:13 AI Ethics and Human Projection
41:47 "Focus on Being Over Doing"
Resources mentioned in this episode
Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson
About Heather Orton
Heather leads Strategy & Innovation for EY Parthenon across Africa, complemented by rich experiences at KPMG in the UK, Accenture globally, running her own not-for-profit and supporting the Royal Household with the launch of the Sustainable Markets Initiative.
Leading with curiosity and creativity, she is strategic thinker, a boundary shifter - passionate about people and planet-centred design; helping organisations change the way they do business to build long-term value and achieve a sustainable future.
She has over 25 years' experience in delivering strategy and operating model design, leading complex multi-country, multi-process transformation projects, across various industries, creating and setting up shared service centres, launching new service offerings, driving innovation, and doing it all in a sustainable way.
Heather is a trained negotiator, business and leadership coach and Member of the Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply. She is an explorer, an adventurer, a knowledge seeker, an introvert.
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Ep30: Building Commercial Skills and Nurturing Human Connections at Work with Heather Orton - Human Wise Podcast
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Introduction and Guest Welcome
Helen Wada: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I am absolutely delighted to have Heather Orton with me this morning. Heather joining us all the way from South Africa. Wonderful, human being. Our paths crossed many years ago and greatly, you know, delighted to say that we've kept connected and had conversations over the last couple of years as I've developed the human advantages.
You've developed your career and really great to have you on the show. Just a little bit about Heather leading with curiosity and creativity. She is a strategic thinker, a boundary shifter, passionate about people and planet centered design, helping organizations change the way that they do business.
To build long term value and achieve a sustainable future. Heather is currently leading the strategy and innovation for EY Parthian across Africa, complemented by rich experiences with [00:01:00] Accenture globally, and also your own not for profit business. And also supporting the Royal Household, Heather. So much in there.
Tell us more.
Heather Orton: Yeah.
Heather Orton's Career Journey
Heather Orton: I mean it's, I always say my career has been a bit of a jungle gym. Like you never, you know, I think people always think of a linear path, but I think you always kind of think about, okay, where am I going next? And it has definitely found. You know, I found certainly that I've sort of jumped from what I would say, career step to career step, but I've had the tremendous privilege of kind of dabbling in a kind of, I would say, tapestry of, career experiences.
And it's always hard to choose my favorite, but I think my, you know, as you said, my two leading values are curiosity and creativity, and I think that has led to me saying yes to some really interesting opportunities. One of which was working with the royal household to kind of launch an organization that his majesty came up with.
And I think it was 2020 which was super fun. But I also had the privilege of working with organizations like [00:02:00] Disney you know, Mondays the ministry of defense in the UK. And everyone, again, that curiosity of like finding out what they do. And then finding better ways for them to do it has, always served me well through that sort of trajectory.
Helen Wada: As fascinating. And I think, gosh, working with the Royal Household in 2020, when. You know, in the pandemic through the pandemic must've been an interesting place to be
Heather Orton: I mean, it was great. And I always say like, the logistics behind sort of meeting with the royal household through that, because, you know, we were based out of techniques, Eastern James's but a lot of it was virtual because of the, you know, the restrictions around working environment and things like that.
So. even his majesty got very adept at zoom calls so that we could catch up.
Helen Wada: The, power of technology, whoever you are and at whatever level and wherever you're operating.
Defining Human at Work
Helen Wada: And I think that kind of comes down to the first question that I always love to ask the guests on the [00:03:00] show. But human wise I'm so passionate about being human at work. What does it mean? How can we get more human?
You know, there's so much information that says, you know, We need to grow. We need to be better, but actually we need to be more human and you've seen so much, what does being human at work mean to you, Heather?
Heather Orton: It's an interesting question because I really had to reflect on this and I suppose the thing that kind of stuck with me and kind of where I got to was I think, you know, being human at work is being able to be true to who you are in the workplace. And then creating an environment where others can do the same.
And I always used to say to my team, like, I want to get to a point I want to create, because it's, so my job as a leader is to create an environment where you can turn up as close to a hundred percent as possible. And the reason I say as close to, because I'm always conscious that there's always other stuff going on in people's lives, you know, stuff they often don't share.
And so it's, close to being 100 percent you. [00:04:00] Is what I want to get to, because that's where the magic happens. You know, if you can really embrace the superpower that you bring to the workplace. Then, you unlock this, incredible productivity and creativity and, delivery.
And so for me, that's always been my ambition, but what that means is that as an individual, I have to be able to adapt to a broad spectrum of personalities, you know, I have. I have a person in my team is very neurodiverse, you know, she brings a completely different kind of way of thinking to the team and I have to create the space for her to be able to operate in, you know, in her strengths which again has been really interesting for me.
You know, I have. Women who are, you know, pregnant or have just had kids I've got gents who are going through, you know, significant kind of life changes. And, again, it's being conscious of that elderly parents is another consideration, you know, a lot of my team have, you know, some sort of caring responsibility.[00:05:00]
And again it's being able to take them as they show up, but still create that opportunity for them to contribute.
Helen Wada: And I think you're right. I think there's a lot more, we're a lot more aware now of other things going on in people's lives, right? You know, in terms of whether it's parents, children injuries, illnesses, whatever it may be there is much more awareness there.
Balancing Commercial and Human Aspects
Helen Wada: You, operate in a highly commercial environment.
You've worked in a number of organizations that are highly commercial. You've worked in not for profits, you've worked in a royal household. We can't get away from the fact that business is commercial in that even if you're in a not for profit, you need to, money makes the world go round. If we don't bring money in, we cannot invest in the causes.
And the things that we want to do. So there is something for me that says it is, we [00:06:00] absolutely have to recognize who people are and what they bring and all that great stuff, but there is a commercial angle to business as well. And I'm just curious about from yourself as a leader, you know, you have to create that space and there's that tension between what we need to do to run our, operate our business.
And also look after our people and, you know how do you manage that?
Heather Orton: So, I mean, what's always worked for me. And I, and again, I think they were case studies. There was a really interesting one in South America where a company was going through a really tough times and they gave the power back to the staff. So they actually federated the organization giving, the company back to the staff.
And so the staff then started making decisions on behalf of the organization. And it's a huge success story because they actually turned the organization around. And I think for me, what's always really worked is giving my team the power and giving my team the, [00:07:00] information. I mean, I would say I always have to build commercial skills within my team.
Like it's not something that comes naturally for many of them. Although I do think it's a critical skill for people to have. But for instance here, like we've been very clear about, we're running as a fast paced startup, you know, it is going to require additional hours, but again, we offer the flexibility for you to do that within your own time.
You know, I care about delivery. Delivery is important because. If we deliver the client will buy from us again. So it's, I do think there's an element of, being very open and honest about where you headed, you know, and painting that clear vision and then empowering individuals to make those decisions.
And what I found is if people don't measure up, there's self regulation that happens. You know, the rest of the team will either support because support is what need is needed. Or judge and then development is needed, you know, so I found that if you have set the right boundaries, then the team does get to a point of self regulation, which again is my dream because I always [00:08:00] say, like, my job is to make my job redundant, you know, if I should be pulling everybody up so that I can step out and nobody would notice.
Helen Wada: And that's the idea, right? You know, it's not that you're going to be on a beach or on safari, but actually you're, doing some more of that purpose driven work that you're focused on and really enjoy it. I think you touch on a really good point there about the commercial skills day, because actually a lot of people that I come across, particularly in my coaching work that I do these days is.
We work when you will have seen it in the past, a lot of technical experts that are absolutely brilliant at what they do, but actually developing those commercial skills what, I like to see rather than skills, for me, it's about a mindset and a muscle that people need to build in order to effectively be entrepreneurial with their business, whether that's working in house or whether it's in professional services.
And I'm just curious to understand from your perspective, you know, what are, [00:09:00] diving deeper into those commercial skills that are needed what, are they?
Building Commercial Skills
Heather Orton: I mean, it's really interesting because I still say, like, I spent 10 years at Accenture and. I think Accenture was a great place, a really great place to start my career. When I think about it, I mean, it wasn't quite the start, but it was a big chunk of my career because, Accenture is a very commercially aware organization.
And they, if you were interested, they allowed you to be able to, you know, build your commercial skills. . And so what are the skills that I think you need to practice? The ability, and I've honed this through working in consulting firms, but the ability to put together a proposal, a commercially sound proposal or offer or opportunity, I think is, a critical skill skill, but then to be able to manage that opportunity as well.
So if you do win it, you know, being able to manage the, p and l across that. You know, that [00:10:00] opportunity is a key commercial skill and all of the levers that come with that, whether it's, you know, price margin operating costs, you know, really understanding how those things fit together and what you can use to improve or consciously, you know, Unimproved that situation, you know, we talk about lost leaders, which are conscious decisions as to how you're going to go to market because you want to build, you know, market presence or you want to create market share or whatever it is.
So I do think those skills from a commercial perspective are really important. And then one that's not necessarily a commercial skill, but then ability to negotiate and the ability to have an interest based conversation around this is what I need. To be able to have an effective business. This is what I've heard you need.
This is how we get, you know, get both get what we need.
Helen Wada: And, I think that touches on that sort of human interaction there. It's an interaction [00:11:00] between two people and not necessarily just a transaction, because I think that's where we can fall down is actually thinking of it as a, transaction. And, for me. It goes back way beyond that proposal stage, Heather, in terms of your network, your conversations.
Your, how are you keeping up with people? How are you understanding what is on potential clients minds? unless you can do that, you almost don't get to the proposal stage. I
Heather Orton: Yeah, I mean it's, interesting because when I started with KPMG one of the things we kind of talked about was, you know the path to commercializing a relationship, you know, you start with a relationship and then, you know the kind of runway to get to a point where that really relationship might result in business.
And I think at the time it was sort of 12 to 18 months of like relationship building before you would potentially convert that. Into a deal. And it always scared me because [00:12:00] I'm a very good relationship builder. But I'm not, I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as a good salesperson, although the evidence will show potentially I need to change that narrative. Well, I
Helen Wada: would I would argue that the, one of the same skills, you're just using the same muscles, but in a different way, that's where the human advantage comes in, right? I, honestly do. Absolutely.
Heather Orton: think that was the turning point for me because I think I always separated the two and I, you know, I would always say I'm a great relationship builder, but I'm not a salesperson. And I think the turning point for me at KPMG was that it, it's not about sales. It's about relationship and then it's about having the right conversations.
And then through that, you identify opportunities for collaboration. And once I'd kind of reframed that in my mind, I was like, actually. You know, those are the types of conversations I need to be having. It's not about, here's a thing, let me sell it to you. It's about, I've heard you have a problem, you know, I [00:13:00] think we can help you with that.
Helen Wada: He's absolutely critical. And I think it, you know, I was talking to, Phil Smith on the podcast last week when we launched and, you know, he formerly the UK chair of Cisco in the UK and Ireland, and we talked about the same thing, right? It's. About reframing our mindset and particularly in the UK and elsewhere in Europe and Africa. We're not, we don't like the term sales. I didn't like the term sales. I mean you sort of had your career at Accenture. I started my career with Arthur And that again was very commercially focused. You know, the learning and development that I got through that. You know, the six, seven years that I was there, it was phenomenal.
But actually, I looked up and I didn't want to stay in that, in the partnership because I didn't want to serve. And that's where I diverted. I, you know, we didn't cross paths at Disney, but I was also at Disney [00:14:00] in the Mouse House for a number of years. But for me, you know, how did I end up in a sales and, it was only when I started to unpick it, when people said, Oh, you're actually pretty good at this.
That I'm like, well, I never wanted to be in sales. Why am I doing it? And that's when I got to the coaching piece. When I looked at the training that I'd had a coach as a coach, you know, started back in 2015. And I thought, do you know what? The skills that I'm using to have conversations, to. You know, work with my team to understand what's going on with my clients.
I'm effectively the same skills that I've been really developing as a coach. And yes, there's some numbers on it. And yes, there's a commerciality. But reframing it to a conversation about what's important to others was, for me, game changing.
Heather Orton: Yeah I, completely agree. And I suppose that, you know, that's what I'm saying, actually, the [00:15:00] evidence will show that I am a pretty good salesperson. Yeah.
Helen Wada: in the firm without you, you being good at what you do. The question therefore becomes for me is, okay, so how do I get there? I, you know, we've got listeners that are at earlier stages in their career, Heather you, and I are both passionate about.
Supporting others to be the best that they can be. And they're listening to this and going, Oh my God, that's me. Right. I'm brilliant at what I do, but I don't like to sell, what do we say to them?
Heather Orton: I always say practice in a safe environment and, you know, with my team I think there's this lovely little book, it said, you know, who moved my cheese and I know it's a bit more of a philosophical
book. But if you think about it in the context of, you know, anyone can be an opportunity for relationship in your organization and anyone can, you know have a, solution based or relationship based conversation, actually, you know, I say it's [00:16:00] not an expectation of my junior members of staff to be going into the market and building businesses and creating opportunities with clients.
But actually they then have a safe environment where they can play with some of the techniques that would work for them. Because I do think what's really important is that you do it in your own way. You know don't try and be, you know the salesman that you associate with, sales. You know, try and figure out how you can make it work for you in your own way, because there will be people that, you know, connect to you, just as there are people who connect to me, and then play with the skills, you know, see if you can, you know, pitch a proposal, you know, see if you can present to a client, you know, start to build some of that muscle memory, see what works, what doesn't work, because I think what's really important and what I certainly saw, Through my career is you need those failure points you know, you need those evidence like I've done, I've stood up in front of someone [00:17:00] 20 times to deliver a pitch, you know,
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Heather Orton: little bit less scary.
And I get a lot of feedback saying, Oh, but you are so calm in a presentation. And I'm like, well, I'm not, I'm just very good at presenting that I am. Because I have, you know, I have done it quite a few times and so I'm a bit more comfortable standing in front of someone saying, this is what we're going to do. Yeah, I would do and, you know, and play run your own business. You know, the piece of thing that I did with my not for profit. With such a big learning curve for me, you know, because you do, and I don't know if you found this, like you do have to get good at, honing what your value proposition is, you know, how you have to get really good at articulating you know, how people can engage with you and what they can do for you, you know and yeah, so I think it's, you know, try things that then broaden those skills for you in a safe environment.
So. You know, once you get to the, high pressured environment, you're like, okay, I've seen this before. [00:18:00] What would you, I mean, Helen, what would you recommend?
Helen Wada: So, so I think it's really interesting and it's fascinating where you said there about, you know, knowing who you are.
The Human Advantage Framework
Helen Wada: so at the human advantage, we, you know, I've created a framework that's effectively drawn, you know, 25, 30 years of commercial experience together with a coaching lens. And, the way that we talk about it is number one, you know, I use that kind of human, but number one is H how you show up.
So exactly what you're talking about there, know yourself, know who you are, know what you're good at, believe in yourself, know why you have a seat at the table, whichever table that is, or whether it's on screen, because once we are confident in who we are. We can better articulate it to others. And I have a phrase that I use for some of my coaching clients.
It's say it, believe it, become it. I was listening to a podcast this morning and they were talking about the [00:19:00] fake it till you make it. That never really sat well with me. You know, I'm like, I'm not really good at faking things. I'm honest. I'm open. I want, but actually say it, believe it, become it. And I had to do that when I transitioned to lead the human advantage.
You know, I was always used to saying I was a client director, but actually. No, I'm the founder of the human advantage. I'm a senior executive coach working with, but you have to say that out loud to kind of believe it and then sort of exert it when you're in the room. So that's my sort of how you show up.
I then go into your curiosity and there was an interesting paper from the world economic forum was talking about jobs needed in the future and up to 2030. Curiosity is one of the biggest skills. And for me, the you and human is about understanding others. It's about getting out there and getting curious.
What's important to you, what's going to make you successful, because if you can help make others successful, you will also be successful at the same time. And I think it then comes into the M, so I'm doing my human now, but the M [00:20:00] is the mindset, because actually we do need a different mindset to believe, yes, we can do it.
Yes, we can be commercial with this. What, are our, what's our focus? What's our outcomes to your negotiation point, but actually let's take a coaching approach to it. How do we have a conversation? That's a real conversation. And then for me you've mentioned this word before the A is about adapting.
So when you're acting, you talk about, you know, presenting in the room, you're kind of doing a show, but you're there because you know who you are. So the A is about acting in the room. And then adapting because no conversation goes according to plan and you need to build those muscles, build it, be present in the room, see what other people are saying.
And then for me, coming back to the commerciality, the end of our human is next steps and then kind of in brackets negotiate if you get to that, because for me, you can have lots and lots of conversations, but if they're never going anywhere. [00:21:00] Then you have to, you know, the commercial angle is knowing when to pause those and when to come back to them and what those next steps after any meeting.
And if you think about any coaching conversation that you had, I think, you know, coaching conversations that I've had where the accountability is always with the client, that there will generally not always be next steps after that that's not for me, but that's for them to take away. And when we have accountability, when we have ownership. We're far more likely to engage and do something. And I think that's also true for client relationships. So that's a real whistle stop tour of my human but, that's kind of, there's a lot more to it clearly. But that's kind of how I see it and how we've brought all the experience together to go, you know, it is possible to develop this over time with reflection, review, reframing. And then going again, repeating,
Heather Orton: It's interesting cause the next steps kind of triggered with me cause I'm, doing a range of [00:22:00] CEO what I call roadshows at the moment where we sort of checking in with some of our clients, CEOs to, you know, kind of. Get a perspective on where they are with the strategy, understand, you know, give them, share what we see in the markets or what others are doing within this space.
And then talking about kind of opportunities for collaboration. And you know, we've been really intentional about what the next step should be for each of those sessions. Like, what do we want to walk out with? Well, we want to walk out with a follow up meeting or, you know, a proposal that we can put in or, you know, an individual who can help us take some of the thoughts forward.
You know, so, and I think when you sort of quite intentional about what that next step should look like, it's much easier than to, to position your conversation in a way that, that gets you to that next step.
Helen Wada: I think you're right. And I think another point to that, and it's come up in some of the group programs that I've run relatively recently is around setting agendas for [00:23:00] conversations. What are we going to cover managing expectations? Everybody is busy these days. You know, there's always something else you could be doing, whether that's for your team, whether it's with other clients, whether it's with your family.
Whether it's for you, I, there's always other things that you do. So have to be really focused and precious around we're spending the time and why we're there and what the outcomes are, because actually sometimes we need to let go of certain things to be able to let in others.
Heather Orton: Yeah true. And I think also in, when you are meeting with someone who's quite senior in an organization, I think it's, cause don't get me wrong, I know everyone's busy, but I think the demands on individuals time, you know, the more senior they are, I do think it's, I always had a mentor and he used to say, you need to plan the first two sentences of your opening statement.
He goes, the rest you can free form, but if you are setting the tone for the meeting, you need to figure out how you are [00:24:00] positioning the meeting. Like, this is why we're here. This is what we want to get from this. And then you can, you know, and it was such good advice because I sort of mentally always think about that when I walk into a meeting, it's like what do, I, you know, how do I want to set the tone?
What do I need to walk out with? That's always, you know, been really important.
Helen Wada: I, do you know what, it's interesting you say that because I hadn't heard that until recently. I don't know why, because it's brilliant, but I had a friend here. And she was presenting at a big conference, and she was planning some stuff. She said, you know what, all I need to do is write my first two sentences. Because I know who I am, I know what I want to get across. But it's those first two sentences that settle you. And then, you can go into free form, as long as you know the outcome. So I think that's really super advice. For anybody that's got presentations coming up, meetings or just conversations, how do you introduce it?
How do you set that tone to help others? And it's [00:25:00] almost creating that psychological safety, particularly if you're having a conversation, right? If you're going into conversation you're wanting people to contribute. that creating that safe space. What is the tone that you set right at the top that enables people to feel comfortable with sharing and being open with, you? What's really on their mind.
Heather Orton: Yeah. And I think over here we practice sort of different settings as well. So, you know, it's not all formal meetings, you know, they, you know, I think it is important to like mix it up and you know, get a, get an appreciation of what's happening in, the broader spectrum of someone's life as well.
So I think that's, I'm really good at like getting to the personal like stuff, like. Yeah. What's happening with the kids? What's happening with, you know, where you traveling to next. And then sometimes I forget that, you know, we're there to talk business. So then I have to kind of pull it back. Okay.
Helen Wada: You, you're kind of 20 minutes in and you're like, okay, [00:26:00] that's maybe why
Heather Orton: yeah,
Helen Wada: connected for so long ago is that all that chitchat first, but look what it got us, right?
Heather Orton: yeah. And it, yeah I think it's. It's important to, again, when I talk about the whole person, you know, you talked about human but also seeing the whole person they're not just their job, you know there's, stuff that they do outside of that.
Helen Wada: Yeah. Clearly. Yeah. A million and one things. What I think is interesting. And as I've started to work, I've always worked internationally, but working internationally with my human advantage hat on and really focusing on people from different cultures and different backgrounds is actually. There are differences in, the way in which people show up and the cultural expectations of particularly how natural it is for people to share things, you know, [00:27:00] and it's important that we are aware of that as human beings talking about being human, that we know it's about being human, we know it's about helping people open up, but that's just not natural to some people.
So I think there's something about being mindful of. Who you are talking to and where they're coming from, whether it's culture, whether it's neurodiversity or, whatever else, you know, from their background,
Heather Orton: Yeah. I mean, again, when I was sort of reflecting on some of the things you'd asked me to reflect on. The statement that stuck in my head is, you know, we judge others by their. We judge ourselves by our intentions. And for me, it's always really important to try and go back to the intentions, because I think if you haven't had exposure to lots of cultures, they might come across as, very direct or very you know, insensitive or.
You know, not assertive or whatever that might be but, [00:28:00] actually their intention is good. It's just that the way that they're presenting that intention might be culturally influenced or personally influenced. And so it's like, okay, well, that person felt very angry in that meeting, but maybe that's, you know, maybe there's a culture there, you know, maybe there's something what was their original intention?
You know they still want to work with us. They still want to find a solution. And then, as you say, taking that coaching mindset and asking more open questions. To see if that really is true. Like, are they angry or is it just how they're presenting?
Helen Wada: it's, I think that you can take that one step further and say, you know, sometimes, you know, particularly in a commercial situation where you're developing business and, you don't hear from people, you know, often you can think, well, is that me? And it's actually. No, it might be just what's going on for them right now.
They just might be super busy. It just might not be the top of their priority list. And I think, and I say, I know sometimes earlier in my career, I sort of beat myself up and go, Oh, what did I do wrong? [00:29:00] You've done absolutely nothing wrong. You just need to be proactive and put a call in and then they're really grateful to hear from you like, oh my goodness, Helen, I wish, you know, I'm so glad that you made the call.
You're on my list. I just haven't got to, you know, and so appreciating where people are coming from is a really important reflection, both before and I think after. Conversations because too often we can be quick to, you know, we're planning for a conversation and then we have it. And then we go to the next one was actually that reflection of what was important for them.
Where were they coming from? Was I truly listening to them because actually, you know, again, I draw on the coaching piece here, often what's showing up as face value, isn't really the pertinent question. I think sometimes I've talked about this on some of the other podcasts with guests, but are we truly listening?
And I think if we're really honest with ourselves, we're not [00:30:00] always as focused and present and really listening to mind, body, and senses. For what's going on around a virtual table or a physical
Heather Orton: No, yeah, I completely agree. And then that really resonates with me because I suppose in our environment, you know there is a lot of like, I would call black hole interactions where you just, you get nothing back and you're like do I, you know, do I nag? Like, what do I do? But I think time and time again, it's been proven that, you know, and I think.
There's different ways, again, that you can approach situations like that. And some, ideas that we use is that, you know, rather than sending continuous like chaser emails or you know, as per my previous email, you know, have you decided to respond? It's, as you say, listening to some of those things that were important in the conversation and then having, you know, like sometimes I'll go.
Read this really, I remember a client, you know, we had a bit of a [00:31:00] giggle about micro mobility tire manufacturer was looking at new opportunities and I was like, have you thought about golf carts and he burst out laughing and he was like, please don't. And then weeks later I stumbled on a really funny article about mobility and golf carts.
And so I just dropped him a note going, thought of you. When I saw this and so it's those little things that you can use to stay connected, but not feel like you're constantly chasing for an interaction.
Helen Wada: I I love that. And I think it's going back to your word of intention, Heather, right? You talked about intention. What is your intent here? Is your intent to win business or actually can we be more human about this? And is your intent to support that person as an individual? In the organization to be successful, and that's about understanding what's important [00:32:00] to them from a business perspective.
It's important to understand what's important from a personal perspective and that you're just thinking of them. And actually in this disconnected, connected world, I still can't work out how we call it because we're, more connected than ever, but you know, more disparate, it's, but actually having a community, having people thinking about you. It's really, truly important and that gets back to being human at work.
Heather Orton: Yeah. And I think it goes back to that curiosity because, you know, I just, I find it fascinating what people do. Um, I'm always like, okay, tell me more about that.
Um, so I do think curiosity for me. And as I said, it comes naturally for me because I just generally find people fascinating but I think you can, you know, I think that's a skill, you know, curiosity is one of those things I think you can build.[00:33:00]
And it's, just, again, asking those questions about, yeah tell me, more about that. Cause, cause I just I've, never done, and I do multiple sectors, so it's like, I've never done, know, making ice cream before. Can you just walk me through, like,
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Heather Orton: to make ice cream?
Helen Wada: That sounds like a really fun client to be working on. I know my kids would love to be there if you can like, come and help make ice cream, maybe like, they'll be all there. And I think, you might, I think there's skills and things that people can develop and learn. And quite clearly that's why the human I developed, I founded the Human Advantage to really support individuals to.
To help take that next step to think, you know, we can be who we are. We can, be authentic. We can craft these relationships and we can be successful in business. And, we don't have to, you know, be any different to who we are, but there is something about that resilience to [00:34:00] keeping going. And I know you were talking before, we started recording about your passion around the 1%.
The 1% Improvement Philosophy
Helen Wada: Tell us, more in your language tell me, a little bit more about the 1%.
Heather Orton: So, I mean the, concept is that if you make 1 percent improvement every day, then by the end of the year, you've made 365 percent improvement because it's small things. And I think I said like atomic habits kind of builds on the foundation of this, which is if you start with micro habits. You know, if you want to get fit, you start with five pushups in the morning and then you consistently do five pushups every morning for the next year.
By the end of the year, you will be much fitter and probably able to do many more pushups. So it's kind of that sort of incremental grain, you know, gains philosophy. And I've always used it quite extensively in my personal life, you know, so I use that kind of build model for my healthy habits. And it's worked really well.
Like last [00:35:00] year I wanted to start reading more. So I was like, you know what, I'm just going to focus on 10 minutes of reading before bed. That's all I'm going to do. And I went from reading, you know, six books a year to reading 40 books a year just for that small little change. So. The concept is, you know, what would that look like for business?
You know, what, you know, if they are making 1 percent incremental change, what would it be and what would the impact of that change be, which I think for me, as I say, is a bit of a fascinating concept. And again, I'm curious as to see how it would play out.
Helen Wada: Yeah I, think you're right. I think my challenge for me personally is, and it's knowing what you need as well, Heather, I think, you know to keep going. So. I get that. And actually I did a lot of exercise and weights working in lockdown. Actually, I was one of the few people I didn't chop, didn't touch a drop of alcohol for six months in lockdown and lost about eight, eight or nine kilos.
Because I just had the habit and maybe I had a little bit more time, [00:36:00] but for me, it's that accountability. And I think having, for me, it's having an accountability part, and it's not the same for everybody. Some people can say, I'm going to do this. But actually, if you are a person that's maybe more like me and less like Heather that can just say it and do it, find yourself an accountability part.
Find somebody who's going to keep you on your toes saying, have you done this? Say it into the outside world. I mean, I've done this big scary thing, as you know, as I'm writing my book. I've said it into the world. And so that book will be launched on the 27th of January, 2026. I'm about 20 percent of the way in.
I've got a lot to write. I know what's going into it. Find strategies that work for you. To help keep you in that making those small shifts. Cause I think you're right. It's that shifts end up in big gains and big changes. And then sometimes we end up in places like we might never have thought we would have imagined, right?
Heather Orton: think it's [00:37:00] also for me really important to understand your process. And what I mean by process is I'm by nature a catastrophizer. So, if something happens to kind of destabilize me in my life, whether I'm working too hard and therefore not maintaining my sort of wellbeing goals, or, you know, whether there's something happening with my, my, my mom and, that sort of disrupting my life, it's, I often go through the same cycle.
So I go through the same sort of, the world is ending, catastrophizing, what am I doing? Then I sort of go over the, tip of like, it's a disaster to, okay, it's not so bad. And then I get into a stage where I'm like, okay, pull yourself together and just fix it.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Heather Orton: And so that's kind of my cycle and it can be short depending on the issue or can be long, you know, depending on whether there's things going on.
But multiple things going on, but I think it's important to understand that curve and then to self care during that curve, [00:38:00] like recognize where you are in that process and then build, as you say, strategies around that process, that means that, you know you can still show up and be successful because.
I think for me and, accountability is really key as well is, you know, in those times when I'm catastrophizing, all I want to do is sit at home and eat chocolate. I'm definitely not working out, but then I give myself some grace cause it's like, okay, well things, you know, things are tough at the moment, so you can have two days off and then you get back to it.
You know it's, kind of having that conversation.
Helen Wada: It's not, beating yourself up about it, isn't it? And I think that's what I've got better with. Maybe it's an age thing. But I've got better at not beating myself up that something doesn't happen and focusing on the real priorities and recognizing that ultimately, gosh, this is where we started is, it's kind of a, just about being human, right?
It's, [00:39:00] about blending this commercial focus with the fact that we are all people. Yeah. We haven't touched on technology today, but you know, yes, AI is going to come in. Yes. We're going to change the way in which we work. But fundamentally, we're a human race that isn't, I hope, going anywhere anytime soon.
Heather Orton: And I think, I mean, if we do want to touch on AI, you know, I think the AI revolution is going to start to accelerate because the nature of the technology means that it naturally will. But, I think that we are still a far way off you know, from it taking over full judgment.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Heather Orton: and I think there's still really big ethical conversations that need to happen around, you know, responsibility and who's, responsible for that.
The, you know, the the AI's decision making, but again, it's really interesting because I, years ago, I decided I want to teach myself Python, which is And I bought this little robot, he's called Cosmo and [00:40:00] you can code him and, you know, it was very interesting because my partner you know, very soon started associating with Cosmo as a person or you know an actual being.
And I had to sort of, like, have you played with Cosmo today? And I'm like, you remember Cosmo is a robot. Like. Yeah. And so I do think, I think that we are going to, I think the challenge is going to be, we are going to project human characteristics onto, the technology.
Helen Wada: Yes, absolutely. Here's to humans with a bit of robot support and not the other way around.
Final Thoughts and Farewell
Helen Wada: I am conscious of time and as always with these conversations, they run and we could talk for ages, but I am mindful of people listening and, you know, lunch breaks and runs and all that kind of thing for those people that are exercising while they're I'd like to leave the listeners with a couple of points.
So one sort of maybe top tip for people listening to this in [00:41:00] terms of something to think about. And then also a question, because I think questions evoke something different for people for themselves. So if there's a couple of things there you can leave us with.
Heather Orton: Yeah. So I'm going to start with a question because for me, the question is. Get really clear on who you want to be rather than what you want to do, because I think, you know, the, what you want to do will change throughout your career and throughout your life. And but, it's who you want to be. That's really important.
And, really being able to articulate for you who you want to be, like, what do you want people to remember about you? And then, checking in, you know is that how you are translating? I think, you know, being. Open to feedback is probably my tip, you know, and actively seeking feedback as well, you know, actively seek feedback, sponsorship, coaching especially, women, because I think we still, I think it is changing, but I think we still are not necessarily [00:42:00] asking for as much help as we should, or, you know, asking for being quite bullish and saying, no I need these skills and I need you to help me build them.
So yeah, I think my tip would be ask. And, then my question would be, and I could be really clear about who you want to be.
Helen Wada: It's wonderful. Absolutely. Delighted to have you on the show two minds, passionate about sustainability, human beings, and creating a better human working world. So thank you so much for joining me Heather this morning. It's been a real pleasure to have you on the show. And
Heather Orton: thank you for having
me.
Helen Wada: down to South Africa, maybe our paths will cross.
So if not, if when you're back in the UK, we can Grab a drink sometime. It'd be lovely to see you
Heather Orton: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I have a spare bedroom. You're welcome to come.
Helen Wada: You say that once, there'll be four of us down there in a shot.
Heather Orton: You are welcome.
Helen Wada: [00:43:00] Lovely, to see you again. Thanks for the conversation, Heather.
Heather Orton: Have a great day.
Helen Wada: You too. Bye. Heather Orton Interview