Ep21: Cultivating Human-Centric Leadership with Philippa White
With host Helen Wada, executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage, each episode will explore what being human at work looks like across a wide range of industries, from people in senior management to those on the ground.
In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada hosts Philippa White, founder of Thai Leadership and author of 'Return on Humanity'. They discuss Philippa's diverse background, her transformative experiences in South Africa and Brazil, and her innovative approach to leadership development.
The conversation highlights the commercial benefits of embracing human-centered practices in the workplace, supported by research from McKinsey and Gallup. They also touch on the challenges of shifting traditional business mindsets towards more empathetic and holistic leadership.
The episode encourages listeners to consider how they can step out of their comfort zones and adopt more human-centric practices in their professional lives.
Topics Discussed:
Human-centric leadership development programs
Importance of relationship-building skills
Shifts in global business practices
Long-term leadership and self-awareness
Benefits of diverse leadership roles
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:36 Inspiration from South Africa
06:26 Creating Leadership Development Programs
08:21 The Importance of Human-Centric Workplaces
15:31 Embedding Human Skills in Education
20:12 Building Immediate Trust in Healthcare
21:12 The ROI of Humanity in Business
21:40 Short-Term vs Long-Term Success
23:04 Defining Success in Modern Business
26:16 The Role of Human Competencies in Negotiation
30:01 Adapting Business Practices for a Connected World
34:07 Empowering Effective Leadership
35:45 Final Thoughts and Reflections
Read the episode blog here
Resources mentioned in this episode
“If you feel safe in the area you’re working in, you’re not working in the right area. Always go a little further into the water than you feel you’re capable of being in. Go a little bit out of your depth. And when you don’t feel that your feet are quite touching the bottom, you’re just about in the right place to do something exciting.”
― David Bowie
About Philippa White
Visit Philippa’s website
Buy Philippa’s book: Return on Humanity: Leadership lessons from all corners of the world
Follow Philippa on Linkedin
What sets Philippa apart is her ability to tackle core challenges that organisations face today—disengaged employees, siloed teams, a lack of innovation, and resistance to change. In a world marked by quiet quitting, disconnection, and a scarcity mindset, Philippa is dedicated to reigniting leaders and teams. Her approach transcends profit-driven goals, focusing on cultivating environments where people unite around a shared purpose, break out of silos, and embrace new, innovative ways of thinking.
Born in South Africa, raised in Canada, running a business in the UK and residing in Brazil, Philippa’s global experience offers a rich, cross-cultural perspective that informs her every talk. Whether addressing dominant voices, team stagnation, or lack of collaboration, she creates the space for leaders to reflect, adapt, and grow.
As an international speaker, author of the international bestselling book Return on Humanity, and host of the TIE Unearthed podcast, Philippa combines powerful storytelling with actionable insights. She helps audiences shift perspectives, embrace challenges and become more adaptable and engaged.
With over 60 published articles and two decades of experience working with top global companies, she deeply understands the pressures leaders face and provides practical solutions that resonate deeply.
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Ep21: Cultivating Human-Centric Leadership with Philippa White
Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Human Wise, the podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work. And I'm absolutely delighted to have Philippa White here with me today. Philippa and I were introduced by mutual contact a number of months ago now, actually, but Philippa was Traveling the world, doing some of the great work that she was doing with her clients and in the world, the global world, really, Philippa, you can tell us more [00:01:00] about that in a moment, but I'm inspired by, the work that she does.
Helen Wada: And not least since that, we've got another mutual connection around Alison Jones and Practical Inspiration Publishing, because you recently published your own book, Return on Humanity. Thank you. And it is a fabulous book for those of you that haven't read it. And I really encourage you to pick it up, have a read because Philippa's wisdom and insights over her 20 year career, working with leaders across the globe, working with local communities, really brings a different kind of humanity into the corporate workplace.
So Philippa, wonderful to have you on the show and look forward to hearing more about you and your journey.
Phillipa White: Oh, Helen, thank you so, much for having me. It's an honor and I'm just so pleased that the stars aligned and we were put in touch and obviously we had a wonderful conversation the other day and I'm really looking forward to this one as well. So thank you for having
Helen Wada: They say, I say in my [00:02:00] coaching, there's no such thing as coincidences. And I think if you go into what you do with an open mind and an open heart, the stars do align and those ridges, ridges cross.
Phillipa White: You just you're open to the world and you say yes to not everything because we don't have time for saying yes to everything just when it feels right, follow the flow. And it's amazing how the world just opens a whole lot of doors and amazing people. So I couldn't
Helen Wada: thank you.
Phillipa White: agree more.
Philippa White's Background and Career Journey
Helen Wada: So coming back to the start of your journey, really you've been running Thai leadership now for almost 20 years, but started a career in advertising. in London, where you worked in the advertising world. I, know it before thinking about a career shift and actually stepping right out of your comfort zone, moving to Brazil, not knowing the language.
Tell us a little bit more about where Ty started and what you've been up to in, in the last, yeah,
Phillipa White: Yeah. 20 years. [00:03:00] God, where do I
Helen Wada: 20 years.
Phillipa White: Yes. Yes.
Helen Wada: stopped her.
Phillipa White: Oh, my goodness, where does where do I start this?
Inspiration from South Africa
Phillipa White: I think, as in the introduction of my book I tell a story, which I I'll very, briefly bring it to life now. But, I was born in South Africa, grew up in Canada.
My family is. African, part British, so I also have a British passport and yes, now living in Brazil. Uh, but because of my global background and the fact that I was born in South Africa, I've been to South Africa a lot. And having grown up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, the world could not have been more different.
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: living in Winnipeg was as everyone here in Brazil says, God, why do you want to live in Brazil? It's just so all over the place Canada is so structured. It's so safe. It's just so perfect. And to be honest, it is all of that. You've
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: health system that works. You've got public schooling.
That's good.
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: You walk down the street, it's clean. It's [00:04:00] it is this sort of Mecca of a place to live. And growing up, there was a wonderful place to grow up as a child. Yeah. Going to South Africa, though, and when I was talking to my family and particularly my uncle and my aunt, my uncle was Nelson Mandela's doctor when Nelson Mandela came out of prison and started negotiations with the apartheid government. And he was that person, not because he was some famous doctor and not because he was some multi wealthy kind of individual
Helen Wada: mhm.
Phillipa White: down to him being this incredibly. driven human that literally did everything he could to fight for what he believed in. And he didn't believe in the regime, the anti or the apartheid regime, and he did everything within his power to try and fix a broken system.
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: I threw him from a very young age. seeing life that wasn't perfect cookie cutter kind of mecca of a world being South Africa, particularly at [00:05:00] that time,
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: I suddenly realized what it meant to have a purpose. I realized what it meant to challenge the status quo, what it meant to step out of your bubble and immerse yourself in situations that are so totally different to what you're used to. And through that example, I just suddenly felt so inspired about what life could be. Looks like through that lens anyway, and in the intro, I won't go into the details, but I was at his funeral. My uncle was so inspirational to me when I was at his celebration of life. Actually, it was a big aha moment for, how a leader becomes so inspirational
and.
Can the lives of other people around them, but also how that leader becomes that person.
Helen Wada: mhm.
Phillipa White: that learning through people who spoke at the celebration of life through reflecting on his life and reflecting on my life at the time, [00:06:00] working in advertising London looking around. Sort of the people and the day to day lives of my life in London,
We all come from the same backgrounds and we all go to the same sorts of places after work and drink beer and
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: sorts of conversations and we all live with the
Helen Wada: I know them well!
Phillipa White: And we all go on holiday to the same sorts of places, but yet we're expected to challenge broken systems.
We're expected to think differently. We're expected to be inspirational leaders. We're expected to have these competencies, these human competencies, be able to empathize and understand and be flexible and adaptable and vulnerable. And I thought, but hold on a second. How is all of that possible? If we're doing the same thing all the time with all the same people with the same sort of reference points and stimuli.
Helen Wada: yeah.
Creating Leadership Development Programs
Phillipa White: so it was with that I decided, you know what I need to create [00:07:00] opportunities for leaders that get them seeing themselves in the world in a completely different way, pushing them in new ways. Like I say pushing them to the edge of their mental maps and gently nudging them off.
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: an evolution of change and the way that I did that or do that, but at the time thinking, okay the way that this is possible is we need to expose people to humanity.
We need to expose
people
Challenges to different people in different worlds, people in new ways by seeing the world through different eyes, understanding what common humanity means. I created a leadership development program and to be honest, the way that I did it then, I still do it like that now, but the only way I did it then was physically sending people to completely
Helen Wada: m.
Phillipa White: where they had this immersive experience.
And I thought they could go to South Africa. I know South Africa. Because of my Adlan days we went to South Africa. Africa all the time on [00:08:00] shoots and there were a
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: Cape Town a lot and I thought and I got to know the Northeast of Brazil. I like to refer it to the Wild West.
It could not be any more crazy than it is. So I thought if I want to push people in new ways and get them seeing themselves in the world differently, this is a way to do that. So I have been in Brazil for 20 years. Now the projects we work in 26 countries around the world.
Helen Wada: It's amazing.
Phillipa White: It is immersive in person experiences.
We have so many different opportunities, but I never left. So I now got two children who only speak to me in Portuguese and I only speak to them in English. They are 14 and 10. So that has been our relationship since they were born. that's, yeah,
Helen Wada: Yeah. Fabulous. And I think what you say there is right.
The Importance of Human-Centric Workplaces
Helen Wada: And I guess I've been doing working with Human Advantage really now just for two and a half years. It's not so long but coming at it from a similar [00:09:00] perspective, saying, actually, we know the world needs to be different at work.
And particularly since the pandemic that's continued to shine a light on what we need to do differently. And I know in your book this. There's stats and there's research that says actually more human working practices. There was a study done on McKinsey a few years ago that says actually more human working practices actually result in higher revenue
And
Phillipa White: 21 percent more profitable.
Helen Wada: In it.
Phillipa White: but it makes sense though. If you just think about it and your listeners as well, just think about you as a, person. If you are happy if you, feel happy, if you feel content, if you feel that people trust you, if you like what you're doing, if you're in that flow state, so you feel like you're doing the right thing. It really fits with your skill set and people give you ideas and you, riff off of that. And then you oh, my God. And your brain just expands if you feel engaged and happy and [00:10:00] you're able to unlock that thinking are so much better at what you do. I literally if I'm. Feeling good. I feel loved. I'm in a good mood. I feel like the ideas that I'm sharing are received in a positive way. I am, I am. Exponentially more able to do what I do and I want to do what I do. So I'm not sick and I
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: and I'm excited to get up in the morning. if you look at the other sort of flip side, so if you're not in a good place, mentally, if you feel like you're just surrounded by a whole lot of negativity, if you don't feel like you have someone who you can share your ideas with, if you really aren't loving getting up in the morning, then you probably are sick.
You probably don't. Don't show up. You don't really care. You don't want to come up with ideas and so that situation is not going to be very profitable.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: so you look at this on a grand scale at companies. And yes, It costs U. S. companies 550 billion dollars a year [00:11:00] having disengaged employees.
That's a Gallup study from last year, I think.
Helen Wada: Yeah. Yeah,
Phillipa White: just your listeners can find it. Companies are 21 percent more profitable when you have engaged employees. It's also a Gallup study.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: It's not rocket science.
Cause it makes sense. Cause as an individual, you can, that makes sense to you too.
Helen Wada: It's not rocket science, but yet still, when I'm out there in the market, having conversations and listening and coaching and seeing people, hearing people on the ground, there is still, in my opinion see what you say, but there is still so much more to be done with regards to. Creating these cultures where the pressures are not so great that people are being burnt out on a regular basis, that people aren't fulfilling their own potential by being in a box, doing something that maybe their skillset doesn't suit them.[00:12:00]
But actually, if you took a more holistic view you, can move them around in the business and actually they could flourish in a different way. I, still see that. I still see the need you and I have connected because fundamentally we need to do more in this space.
Phillipa White: Yeah. And I think it's again, as professionals your listeners can reflect on all of this. All of this comes down to leadership, right? So all of this
Training leaders. To have these human competencies, a lot of leaders who are being trained for, I don't know presentation skills or negotiation skills, maybe, or or the harder kind of skills.
But
The soft skills, right? I like to call them the power skills or the absolutely critical skills. But
they're, you know, but these are the softer skills. And the thing is, you can't really. Teach these in a, classroom environment.
You can't Teach someone to be more empathetic [00:13:00] you can't show a PowerPoint presentation and say, okay, here's this person in this situation. Here's you. Now, you just need to understand that individual and go.
Helen Wada: Yep.
Phillipa White: that's not how this works and vulnerability. Vulnerability is a huge strength.
And we know that. And there's I've got the number of stories I can tell about vulnerability, but vulnerability is You know doubt. If you don't have doubt, that is actually a really dangerous thing for any business or leader or any situation. But the thing is again, understanding the power of doubt, the understanding, the power of being vulnerable. a leadership capability, which also then falls into self awareness. Now, all of this, you can't teach self awareness in a PowerPoint presentation. All of this. Is one companies that understand the importance of these skills, but then also understanding that need to be developed. And it's a way of developing leadership, I don't, I've been doing this for 20 years.
And it's a way that you can do that with, what [00:14:00] I do, and obviously with your work as well, you need these forward thinking companies to be able to understand that this stuff doesn't just happen. You can't have. More human cultures, which are more profitable. You can't have that without more human leaders.
But the thing is, it doesn't just happen. You have to invest in those people and you need to help those people develop those competencies. And if you don't do that, then you. Will struggle. You will struggle from an innovation point of view. You will struggle from a profitability point of view. You will struggle from a cultural point of view.
It's, inevitable. And the way that the world is going, that's just going to get stronger because well, for so many reasons.
Helen Wada: Yeah, and I would add to that, I think it's the length of time because to your point, it's not just a PowerPoint presentation. It's not just one training conversation. It's, and this is where the coaching comes in that I do, and I know you do with your work is, embedding things over time and getting [00:15:00] people to explore and try things that might be pushing them out of their comfort zone.
I talk about comfort zone, learning zone, stretch zone what are you doing today, this week, that is out of your comfort zone a bit, because you're right, we all have. Zones that we're comfortable with it and zones that we're not, but if we're not stretching ourselves and the trouble is that I see is that for the most part, and it's not exclusively, but people, they come out of university or whatever, and they're, knocked into shape to be the experts that they are needed to be in the workplace, whether that's in advertising, whether it's accounting, whether it's law, but actually the world that we need to operate in today, whether you've got AI, maybe doing some of the basic work and you need to be Taking a step up in your thinking, leading teams, it's a different skill set to those skills that you learn right at the beginning of your career.
Embedding Human Skills in Education
Helen Wada: Traditionally my thinking is actually the earlier that you can embed these skills at schools, at [00:16:00] university, the, it should be my mission is I would love to have it as part of the curriculum in time and working with schools and so forth, just to, yeah, I look at my, boys
Phillipa White: yeah, I've just hired somebody. She's just finished her her degree in political science at the federal university here in Brazil. She's so amazing and she. basically, she, and I can't remember, I think it's CISV or something. I can't remember the name of the organization, but basically it's an NGO. their is almost identical to mine, but they work with children and their whole thinking is developing the adults of the future by developing one child at a time. How do they do it? They, every summer from 10 years old, Duda went abroad and lived with a family. Okay. Every single summer from 10 until 2 years ago,
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: went to whenever she's [00:17:00] 20 something now, right?
So
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: years, she every year, she lived to the family. It's like Portugal, Hungary like Austria. live with the family for that time.
Helen Wada: Amazing.
Phillipa White: the whole thinking is, the more you experience these different cultures, the more you experience different situations, the more, flexible you are as a, human, the more you, develop the skills in order to be a more grounded, successful person.
Open minded amazing human I mean and that is exactly it.
Helen Wada: It's that.
Phillipa White: all that needs to happen is you just need to push yourself in different ways. Is it comfortable? No at 10 years old. Does that freak you out as a parent? Can you imagine sticking your 10 year
Helen Wada: Oh man.
Phillipa White: see you later?
Helen Wada: It was hard.
Phillipa White: amazing. Her parents were phenomenal people
Helen Wada: oldest son, he's 14. So he went on a Spanish exchange just a month ago. And
Phillipa White: That's
Helen Wada: that, that was hard. And, he went without any of his mates because none of his mates wanted to do it. And he [00:18:00] was like the week before, mum, why am I doing this?
What? I'm like. In five, 10 years time, you will thank me for the opportunity that you had to go and live with a Spanish family for 10 days. We've got the daughter coming back here in,
Phillipa White: Oh,
Helen Wada: in March.
Phillipa White: great.
Helen Wada: And there was still that, that first night going, why am I here? What is this for? I'm like, because unless you have, unless it's where it comes into coaching advocacy, supporters, parents, to have somebody that's going to stretch you.
Because naturally we want to sit in our comfort zone, right? It's easy, but actually the experiences that we get and the reward and I think the energy I can hear it in your voice, the energy that you get from having different conversations, going to different cultures, thinking about things in different ways is, amazing.
Phillipa White: David Bowie has a, there's a quote and again, we need to find it and stick it in the, show notes. But it's something [00:19:00] along the lines of, In your profession, whatever it is that you're doing, just make sure that your feet are just a little bit, above the ground.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: When you're in that position, you're in just the right place. And he lived his life just doing that. That's how he kept reinventing himself because he just kept he there were 2 things. 1 was a beginner's mind. So he just kept clearing out his brain, just like stopping everything, clearing it out and just saying, okay, starting again. then also just making sure that he was always saying yes to things where he just felt that his feet weren't quite touching the ground, just a little bit out of your depth and I just think great advice because and it's so crazy because the more that you start to do that. The more opportunities arise, the more that the world, we were talking about opening doors when we
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: it's like the more that you start saying yes to things and, oh my God, I don't know if I can do that. Do it anyway. Say
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: What's the worst can happen? [00:20:00] Seriously. You'll figure it out.
Helen Wada: We're not doctors. We're not and,
Phillipa White: I would say, yeah, exactly. I think that's the one time reason, of course. Don't do the open heart surgery until you definitely know what you're doing a hundred percent
Helen Wada: actually it's really, but it's really interesting.
Phillipa White: flying a plane.
Helen Wada: Yeah. One of the that's all done by technology mostly these days anyway, isn't it, but one of the guests that I had a guy called Vishi Reddy on this podcast in the first series friend of mine, but it's a heart and lung surgeon.
Building Immediate Trust in Healthcare
Helen Wada: And actually he takes that humanity to the next level. And we, it was a wonderful conversation because you're exploring, actually thinking about what doctors need to be doing and having the depth and connection of the conversations to, have that trust right from the outset. They need to go straight in.
There isn't the time to be waiting for months and months to build that trust and report, you've got to get that trust and report immediately. Okay.
Phillipa White: Yeah.
Helen Wada: For somebody to, [00:21:00] to have faith in that you're going to operate them, but particularly in the US system where, you know your, choice of surgeons and things like that.
But it does then raise the question, why do some organizations find it harder to invest in these types of essential skills rather than the technical training or the technology? Because I still see a constant battle in terms of, yes, we'd love to do more, but we know we know we should be doing this.
However,
The ROI of Humanity in Business
Phillipa White: The thing is, I think it comes down to that, which is it's not a, it's not an accident that my book is ROI out and then you have the
Helen Wada: I love it. I love it. And I'm going to hold it up. It says, if anybody's watching video, hello, I return on humanity and
Brilliant title.
Phillipa White: and that, right? Short term. We need to make we need to make this next quarter. We need to make the next quarter. We need to make this amount of money, [00:22:00] whatever it is.
Short-Term vs Long-Term Success
Phillipa White: And if you're short, if you're focused on the short term, it's like anything, it's with a child use that as an example.
I need my child to listen to me and go to bed early and they're, I don't know, not listening. So I'm going to yell and I'm going to say, stop doing that. You're turn off the TV. We need to go to bed now.
Helen Wada: I told you this 10 minutes ago.
Phillipa White: Yeah. We all we've all been there. But the That is the short term win, right?
So
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: going to go to bed? Yeah, they're going to go to bed now and they'll go quickly. It's not going to be very nice. It's going to be a pretty shit situation, but they'll
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: you won that battle then. But the problem isn't that problem. That's that sort of, we, you managed to turn that over for that.
You don't deal with that now, are you going to probably have the same problem tomorrow? 100%. then you have to yell again. And then is it probably going to happen to you? Is it probably going to happen again? So then you have to yell again. The other [00:23:00] option is to actually see what that problem is. Does that child understand that have you sat down, had a conversation with that kid
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: that?
You're going to be really tired if you don't go to bed. Whatever. So we can,
see how there's two ways of doing it. There's a short term top down yelling and dealing with the short term issue. The
other Is developing with a longer term issue.
Defining Success in Modern Business
Phillipa White: And I guess the question is, why is anyone in business? Are you in business? Is it literally just to make a whole lot of money or if it's to service someone with
Is that you've invented and whatever it is that you're doing, money is the outcome and you
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: more money if you do that in a nice way. If you do it in a top down way. Yeah, you'll probably still make money, but is that gonna be the long-term? Is there a longevity in that business model? And I think it's just having that thinking of why are you in business? Do you have [00:24:00] stakeholders? If you have
Stakeholders What are they in that business board? Because if your only objective is to make a whole lot of money you, literally don't care about those stakeholders.
You don't care about. Anyone else or the environment or civil society or anyone else around you, you just care about making a whole lot of money
Then just. Think about what that type of environment looks like over time. I don't know many people who would want to work in that kind of environment. I don't know an environment around that type of business that would be very healthy.
I
don't
Know. And so you just, does it take a little bit longer to have that conversation with that child rather than yelling at it and forcing it to go to bed? Yeah, probably it does take. And is it a bit of education over time? Yeah, maybe.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: again, it comes down to what are you building? Yeah.
What are you building? And what are people a part of? And what's the, environment that you're wanting to create in order to then be able to develop more, income?
And so
Is, yes, of course, this is all about business. Of course, you need to make money [00:25:00] in business, but is it at the expense of? is it to service something? I know what I've chosen with what I want to do with
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: and with my work. I know why I'm in business. I know what my purpose is. I know what I know how to get other people on board with that purpose. I know how to treat people well. So they actually want to hang out and do good stuff with me. And the result of that will be great. Is a very a very positive environment for everyone. It just, it all comes down to how people see success, right? What is
Helen Wada: And I think there is that, it's that definition of, what is the definition of success?
Where you're at. And I think. With, climate change with, everything, with increasing stakeholders, with communities, with belonging, actually, it's a chance. Now we really are at that time post COVID 19 and getting back into a world where we are [00:26:00] more connected.
Yes, there's more. More in, in person work, what does it mean to be belonging to an organization? And around a purpose the organization, we talk about the organization's purpose was the organization's purpose, but what's your purpose as well, and how does it align? And I think sometimes people think it has to be this, far greater good.
Sometimes actually it's just taking it down a key. Am I making a difference? Am I making a difference with what I'm doing? And who I'm working with,
Phillipa White: And
Helen Wada: and
Phillipa White: all about connection and belonging. And you know what?
The Role of Human Competencies in Negotiation
Phillipa White: It's so fascinating because I use negotiation skills and as an example of hard skills that people might learn in business. But even these human competencies creep into negotiation skills. And there's this phenomenal book that if you readers haven't read it. Got everyone has to read it. It's phenomenal. It's called never split the difference and it's
Helen Wada: Chris Voss.
Phillipa White: Yeah. Oh my God. It's so amazing.
Helen Wada: Yeah.[00:27:00]
Phillipa White: it so you've obviously read it, but for any listeners out there who haven't, I mean, he is a hostage negotiate. He was,
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: The FBI's best hostage negotiator. He has seen the most hideous, awful things of kidnappings and hostage situations in country. You could imagine from the Philippines, Afghanistan, Iraq to the United States of America and. There are basically 2 ways that you can negotiate. 1 is this really top down, really aggressive way of negotiating.
We've all seen it. We've probably
all
You've been to or the other way is using human competencies and it's being able to really connect with someone and it's helping them it's, Coming at it from a very equal point of view, and it's creating those connections and that belonging and that understanding and that common humanity and not to take advantage of that person.
It's literally to in a very honest and way to be [00:28:00] able to. Get at the same level, and then to find this, this commonality and by doing that. You will without question be so unbelievably successful where you're both hugging one another and leaving and everything's fantastic and you manage to get an amazing deal and it's just phenomenal how even negotiating, human competencies are at the core of that too.
Helen Wada: But it's it's fascinating how you come, how you've come around to that, because actually at the core of the human advantage, so I was a global sales director at KPMG, And people would say to me, why are you good at what you do? And I had never intended to have a career in sales, a career in relationships.
I was an auditor and private equity by original trade. Yeah. I'm now an experienced executive coach. But actually when I unpicked it, and I've said this on a couple of podcasts before, I realized that the skills that I used in relationship building and connection and generating opportunities [00:29:00] in, closing opportunities and winning business for the firm was because I had the skills of a coach and the deep listening, the ability to create a container of trust where actually you can work with others.
You can challenge back. You can offer insight in a way that you're looking at that whole success, not just the financial success, where you're coming at it from. And, for me, that comes back to my purpose because actually it comes back to making the human advantage, your commercial advantage, because these skills are absolutely essential to creating business opportunities in the world that we live in.
And if we don't have those skills, we can't create the business opportunities.
Phillipa White: totally.
Helen Wada: If, we have those skills, then people are better at getting out there. They get out of their comfort zone. They, look at building new connections. They build it, winning new work. But those are the same skills that we need to be [00:30:00] human centered leaders, thinking about our teams, listening to what's going on for them.
Phillipa White: You
Helen Wada: there's a, there's this kind of, it marries it together. And that's where I get, that's where I get excited. My, my purpose. Yeah.
Phillipa White: do people not get this?
Adapting Business Practices for a Connected World
Phillipa White: funny because what we're doing is we're changing. Customs, right? So there was a very traditional way of doing business, but the thing is that way of doing business made sense when business was being done that way.
In this sort of industrial age, when the world wasn't so connected we didn't have so much transparency, everything you can find out anything. Now, it's just typing. Quickly something into the internet and you have all the answers. No, there's no hiding anymore. But before when people didn't we didn't have the internet when people were making things in factories in one region.
It was very top down because at the end of the day, you had the sort of the boss people come in. They literally just there was no, it was very [00:31:00] independent thinking. We didn't need collective opinions about things because to be honest, you had you had the guy who owned the factory or the manager.
Come on, make those things, clock in, clock out, go home. Was it a great way of working? No. Was it probably horrible and hideous? Yes. And okay, that's a whole other story. But at the same time, there there wasn't need for and also from the point of view of stability things just ticked along and you had the kind of the family environment and the wife was at home and. Everything just ticked over world is a completely different place. Right now. We have environmental catastrophes. We have this interconnected world where we can't think in isolation anymore, because what happens in 1 place fundamentally impacts people in another place we need. Different decision makers coming in, because it is now absolutely impossible for us to be able to create solutions or come up with [00:32:00] solutions without involving a whole lot of other people from other sectors, countries divisions like
Helen Wada: Different disciplines, we need different things, we, different, yeah.
Phillipa White: because the world one is changing incredibly quickly. The crises are not going away. If anything, they're just going to get 10 years from now, so much worse. So it's like. We're, no longer just living in little bubbles, we can't, it's impossible. And on top of all of that, we've got all of this digital connection, transparency, there's no more hiding. But the, thing is the systems of business haven't caught up. And
the
The customs of business haven't caught up. So there's a lot of people, and it's a generational thing, right? Because
Within all of our generations. So you've got generation, maybe, of the kind of still men. Mostly kind of women think very differently. And we know that
there's
Many stats to prove that the more you have women at the table, making decisions in companies, it is so much more successful. But you've got these sort of really [00:33:00] old ways of thinking and very
kind Ways of thinking, and we need to break that.
But
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: hard to break customs and culture. It takes a couple generations. So
Helen Wada: And we need,
Phillipa White: doing that, but it's just it's slow. And anyone who has the ability to just open your mind, see the research, it's all there. It's all there, but it's the decision makers don't want to change.
Helen Wada: well, there's the fog again, takes people like you and people like me and others out there doing great work to just keep on this conversation. And that is my hope and belief that the more people that are hearing these types of conversations, take a step back and just look at the world that they're in and think, what can they do?
In their world to shift the dial it's one when I, came out and started the human advantage, one [00:34:00] conversation at a time, it's all out the 20 years of experience that you've got. I've been brought up and my, world is the traditional world that, that exists, which is brilliant for many reasons but, it's changing and
I think,
Phillipa White: Yeah.
Empowering Effective Leadership
Phillipa White: One, one more book recommendation for your listeners. I recently did the podcast with the author. I think, it's a New York Times bestseller. Anyway, he's so inspirational. He's an Argentinian psychologist and he wrote his name's Thomas, Chamoro, Chamusic.
Anyway you'll see we'll put it in
Helen Wada: we'll dig it out. Yeah.
Phillipa White: but it's called Why Incompetent Men Become Leaders. And how to fix it. is an amazing podcast actually that I've done with him. He is First of all,
Helen Wada: I haven't listened to that one. I will own. Yeah.
Phillipa White: Here and it's only like a 10 minute Ted talk, but it is genius.
And what he says is it's not about empowering [00:35:00] women. It's not about putting women at the front. What we need is we need less incompetent men to be in positions of power. And we need the, more human forward thinking who in positions of power, because once that happens. the rest just follows and I thought that was a really interesting way of seeing it.
But anyway, have a read of the book or see the TED talk. It's fantastic. But I, couldn't I, couldn't agree with you more. It's, about all of us doing our bit and it's, just continuing to have these types of conversations because the more that we can show the, the the proof points
Helen Wada: yeah.
Phillipa White: continue to just fight the good fight. The needle does the needle does move. It does
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Phillipa White: it takes time and we
Helen Wada: We need we, need more of us and we need to be patient, which
Phillipa White: We do, which
Helen Wada: we want to see results, right? We want to see it.
Final Thoughts and Reflections
Helen Wada: I always love to leave the listeners with a question because I think a question helps people to think about what they might do or what would be a [00:36:00] question that you would leave the listeners with as we close out the day.
Phillipa White: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Leaving people with a question. I think back to what we were talking about with leaving our feet just slightly off the ground. I think it's I think it's Eleanor Roosevelt who said, do one thing every day that scares you. And I just think, what would you do? This week will leave your feet just a little bit off the ground and perhaps scares you a little bit. And I think I'd like to leave that with people just to think about because it's doing that the needle starts to shift.
Helen Wada: Beautiful. Love it. Thank you so much, Philippa. It's been an amazing conversation. As always,
Phillipa White: Thank you.
Helen Wada: See you later.
Phillipa White: you so much. Helen.
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