Ep28: How to Embrace Authenticity at Work with Insights from KPMG's Karl Edge
What does it mean to truly be human at work, and how can we redefine success to incorporate authenticity and connection? In this insightful episode of Human Wise, we dive deep with Karl Edge, the chief people officer at KPMG UK and Switzerland. Discover how Karl's diverse background—from actor to accountant—shapes his philosophy on leadership and balance in the modern work environment.
Explore themes like the shift from "human doing" to "human being," how to sustain energy and prevent burnout, and why presence and listening matter more than ever in client and team relationships. Karl shares his philosophies on weaving humanity into commerciality, the power of mentorship, and creating psychological safety to challenge and innovate.
For professionals, leaders, and anyone seeking a more fulfilling workplace experience, this episode offers actionable insights and reflections on blending personal purpose with professional success. Don’t miss Karl's wisdom on crafting a work-life balance that honors both your identity and your career aspirations.
Topics Discussed:
Authenticity in leadership roles
Balancing career and family
Human-centered leadership importance
Building long-term client relationships
Impact of being present at work
Timestamps:
00:00 "Balancing Human Doing and Being"
04:33 Balancing Business and Humanity
07:10 Prioritizing Client Relationships Over Tasks
11:28 Balancing Short-Term Gains with Long-Term Vision
16:10 Developing Resilience and Focus Over Time
16:48 "Optimize Meetings with Intentional Breaks"
21:14 "Stepping Out of Comfort Zone"
24:18 Awareness Through Slowing Down
27:09 Fostering Rich Conversations Post-Meeting
31:06 Networking Through Genuine Connections
33:49 "Building Trust for Open Dialogue"
36:24 Balancing Family and Career
39:31 "Parting Advice and Reflective Questions"
42:33 Gratitude and Appreciation
About Karl Edge
Learn more about Karl’s role at KPMG
Karl became Chief People Officer for the UK firm on 1 January 2024 and from the 1st October 2024 became Group Chief People Officer following the UK and Swiss merger at KPMG. Karl also continues his role of Head of Regions and is a member of KPMG UK’s Executive Committee.
He is passionate about people and their development and continues to be an active leader on the personal development of our partners and colleagues, leading on a number of development programmes over the past 20 years. He has a genuine passion for ensuring authentic leadership in our firm and beyond. He is also an advocate of IDSE and was listed in the FT HERoes of women in business Top 30 male role models who are making significant contribution to gender diversity and the promotion of women to senior business roles.
He was previously the sponsor of our KPMG Wellbeing network in the Midlands and is an active advocate on social mobility for the firm having recently accepted the Social Mobility Firm of the year award on behalf of KPMG.
Karl has held a number of senior leadership roles within KPMG UK. Previously as UK and EMA Head of KPMG Private Enterprise, Midlands Regional Chair and Birmingham Office Senior Partner, Senior Partner for Watford and Milton Keynes and a UK Board member where he was also the Chair of the Remuneration and Nominations Committee.
Karl joined KPMG in 1991 in audit where he qualified as an Accountant with the Institute of Chartered Accountant England and Wales in 1994. He has spent his career based in the regions and brings over 30 years’ experience of working with clients ranging from FTSE100 to large privately owned to PE backed across a wide range of sectors, including Industrial Markets, Automotive and House Building.
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Ep. 28 How to Embrace Authenticity at Work with Insights from KPMG's Karl Edge
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Guest Welcome
Helen Wada: Hello,
and welcome to another episode of human wise. I am absolutely delighted to have Karl Edge here with me today. Karl became chief people officer for KPMG UK on the 1st of January, 2024. And from the 1st of October last year, 2024, he became group chief people officer following the UK and the Swiss merger at KPMG, he continues his role of head of regions and is a member of the KPMG UK executive committee.
Thank you alongside all your client work, Karl, and [00:01:00] our paths crossed many, many moons ago, actually, whilst I was at Firm, but actually, luckily, since I've been running the Human Advantage, actually, and having conversations about your passion for people, your passion for authenticity at work, your passion for.
Women in, in leadership, women throughout an organization. And when we were having a conversation and talking about the podcast, I was like, do you know what, let's get you on the show and have a conversation because you've got rich insights, both from a commercial perspective and from a people perspective.
So really delighted to have you here and can't wait to get going. Welcome to the show.
Karl Edge: Well, hi, Helen. Brilliant to see you again. As you say, our career paths have crossed a few times, but, but also really excited to have the opportunity to chat today on a subject that both of us are passionate about. So, really looking forward to getting into it.
Helen Wada: Absolutely.
Karl Edge's Background and Personal Life
Helen Wada: And, you know, I shared a little bit about your bio, your history, but given that we're talking about being human, who, who is Karledge?
Karl Edge: Who is Kyle Edge? Well, Kyle [00:02:00] Edge is very proud to be a father of three daughters. Actually I can tell you that KPMG changed my life because on my first day, 34 years ago, I met a lady called Kate. And we've been married now 27 years and she has been my rock all the way through everything that we've done, as well as the mother of my three daughters.
Helen Wada: Well done, Kate.
Karl Edge: I guess we say that we've been very human all the way through our time. If, if you wanted me to give you a very, the classic lift pitch about me, I'd say I've trained as an actor, qualified as a chartered accountant, I've spent 20 years as a sales partner, and now I have the massive privilege.
I've been the CPO of a business with well, 18, 000 people in the UK and then 22, 000 across the UK and Switzerland. So I am a very, very fortunate individual.
Helen Wada: And what, what a rich history starting with acting. I always remember when we had that first conversation, you said, I started off in acting. I'm like, goodness gracious me. I can see that, that passion and the energy coming through. And maybe we'll talk about some of that later on, but.
Defining Human at Work
Helen Wada: You know, [00:03:00] that moving from a chartered accountant, commercial business to now leading the people organization, what is it for you that makes it to be human at work?
You know, being human wise, what does being human at work really mean to you?
you?
Karl Edge: I
think it's really interesting having done the various roles I've done because the, the, the people and the clients are two sides of the same coin. And yet the one thing for all of us is the world has just got crazy. If you think of the last few years, the acceleration of everything from geopolitics, economics, regulation technology, ways of working, society.
Everyone's just got more and more to do to keep up. And it means we've become human doings. We're actually human beings. And that's what being human means to me, is how can I be with people more often? And I really worry in the world we've got of just doing more and more and more. Every one of us has got a task to which we [00:04:00] never get to the end of, but being a human doing ultimately leads to burning, being a human being, being human with those around you, create connection, connectivity, support.
That's what being human needs to be. Because if you can do all that, both in life and in work, then when it gets hard, but as it inevitably does, you'll find a path through it, you'll Because you'll have support and you'll have the people around you who care for you to help you. So for me that, that's what being human means and also why it's so important.
Helen Wada: And I, I get that. I hear that, you know, 30 years in, you know, I started my career with Arthur Anderson many, many moons ago for those listeners that I remember. There's, there's far too many people that I speak to now that are Arthur Anderson. They're like, Oh yeah, that's my age. Actually, I met my husband at Arthur Anderson.
So these firms
Karl Edge: There you go, you see.
Helen Wada: two boys after it as well. But there's something, you know, I've seen that throughout my career, whatever role, whether it was an industry or my career at [00:05:00] KPMG, or even now, to be honest, running my own business. There is that constant task list. And a lot of people I work with when I'm coaching, I think there is a real struggle there because I get what you're saying.
Balancing Commercial and Human Aspects
Helen Wada: I said, I think a lot of people in the working world will probably get what we're saying here, but there's something about how do you marry that commercial nature of what we need to do with human nature of what we need to be. And I think, you know, you have shown that in spades in terms of how you're able to.
Marry those two elements of being commercial on the one hand, but being a human the other. And I'm just curious, you know, for those listeners out there thinking, how do I get it, but what do I need to, to, how do I need to be in order to really manage myself and be more human at work, both for myself, for my clients.
And for those in my team,
Karl Edge: And I think that it's a word you just used actually, it's the how as [00:06:00] much as the what.
You know,
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Karl Edge: You know, everything we do, I'm thinking about the how as well as the what. And unfortunately there's no, you know, magic answer. There's no one thing that I do 100 percent of the time that changes it. It's about what are your 1% s.
I always talk to people, I find the 101%.
The Importance of Presence and Listening
Karl Edge: So if you think about how present are you, I think it's really interesting thing for us to reflect on in all we do. Am I present at home and at work? Or actually at work, am I really busy? And when I get home, I'm fast asleep on the settee. Or am I really present at home, but when I'm at work, I'm completely distracted. And so what are your ways that you learn to manage your energy To be present in all situations the best you can by the way None of i'm i'm good at this, but i'm not perfect at it, right? So it's fine. There's an element of being kind to yourself in the middle of that apply that in a commercial world Yeah, the ability to be in a commercial world is [00:07:00] okay.
So i'm now going out to see a client
client. Do
Do I see the client as the title and the decision maker and buyer, or do I look beyond the title and try and be curious about who they are as a person? So again, it's the same human skill. One I'm thinking about being present for myself, the next one I'm thinking about being present for my client.
And I think it's a fascinating thing to get people when they go and meet clients, to take it not being a, not being the task, right, we've got this client meeting, we've got these 10 things on the agenda to get through. No, no, no. Let's just stop for a moment and think who is the client and where are they?
And one of my learnings on client relationships over the year
that, you know, it's
is we sort of make assumptions. The, the Helen I met three months ago is the same Helen I'm meeting now. And yet we all know in the space of three months, lots can change in your life, in the world of work. So actually, do we start by checking back in and going, well, where are you [00:08:00] now and how are you?
That's being human. And ultimately that's building relationships and relationships actually survive the years. Whereas just doing a task, just being on, get this done, get this done delivers in the short term, but I don't think builds both the long term relationship or the enjoyment of being together.
Helen Wada: and it's interesting that you say that about that focus, that connection, treating them as human beings, because one of the reasons that the human advantage was born was because when people ask me, why are you good at what you do? And, and let's face it, I'd never wanted to be in sales. I left Arthur Anderson, albeit when it was going under, but because I looked up and I thought, Oh, I don't, I don't want to be out there selling, you know, this is what I do.
I worked on transactions and all that, you know, fun, nitty gritty stuff. But actually when I trained as a coach, the skills that I gained as a coach will have been absolutely invaluable for me in client relationships. And because actually [00:09:00] as a coaching person, you're looking at the other person first, you leave absolutely everything out the door.
Right. So I might've been screaming at my kids or, you know, have an argument with my husband or good, or, you know, I've had a difficult conversation with somebody else with my team just beforehand. But knowing that actually when I walk into that room or that virtual room, I have to be 150 percent focused on that individual because I never quite know what's going to show up.
And I think that makes the point to your saying, you don't know what's happening. Not, not just three months. I mean, sometimes week to week.
Karl Edge: Yeah, I
Helen Wada: You know, you can set an agenda and, you know, more often than not, people are not setting agendas, I think, in as much as they should be doing, and that's another conversation.
But even once you set an agenda to check in, to use it, to steer it, is that still the right agenda? Because actually, you may well be missing a trick on that big thing that's there that you haven't sat back and listened.
Karl Edge: Yeah. Well, and that [00:10:00] point about taking a step back and listening. One of the things I always talk to people about when I'm working with them is can you go into conversations where you listen to someone as opposed to listen for something?
Helen Wada: Mm hmm.
Karl Edge: And most people go into a conversation listening for something.
In a commercial situation, I'm listening for the trigger for the thing that I want to talk about. And once you say it. My little heart jumps with joy and away we go. In a, in a team environment, I'm listening for the cue to say what I want to say next. Because all I'm doing is, you know, the gap between me speaking is just waiting to speak again. As opposed to listening to someone. Now that requires me not to know exactly what I'm going to say next. Because I'm, as you would do as a naturally as a coach. If I can listen to someone, they feel heard. And by the way, then what will happen is they might mention the thing [00:11:00] that's right on top of my list, but it might be at the bottom of theirs.
And the reason, you know, commercial people are successful is because they get to the key issue, the client's got, which they often don't want to tell you first anyway, because they're still sussing you out.
Helen Wada: Yeah?
Karl Edge: If you sit with it longer, stay with it and show real interest. I think one of your previous people on here was talking about curiosity, just keep doing that, you will get eventually to a better answer.
And by the way, this is where the task thing comes in, because if you're task motivated, you want to get there really quickly.
Helen Wada: Mm hmm.
Karl Edge: you're human motivated, you'll get there in a way that makes it more sustainable. But that's a bit of a leap of faith, particularly in the difficult world that we're, we're all operating in today.
Challenges of Short-Term vs Long-Term Focus
Helen Wada: And it's interesting that you bring that up because I think one of the challenges and actually I, I opened human wise with a wonderful lady called Kath Bishop. I don't know if you've come across her. She was a former Olympic rower and wrote a book called the long win that is absolutely fantastic and talks about actually, you know, she [00:12:00] has a lens of sport and how, you know, we are very generally in the, in the world, short term focused in terms of whether it's.
Yearly results, whether it's half year, quarter year, and, and some of this, you talk about a leap of faith. It requires us to take a step back and say what is right for the long term, but actually in business. And again, curious about your perspectives in a leading a commercial organization, how we marry that demand for short term results with really what we need to be doing for human centered leadership.
leadership.
Mm hmm. Mm
Karl Edge: And
like, we don't, no one will get this a hundred percent right. Yeah. The fact though, that you take a step back and constantly reflect on it will help you get it right more times than you get it wrong. Yeah. I mentioned at the outset that I've been in a role as a market partner in KPMG for 19 years before this role, that meant working with non audit clients, looking to see if we could help, you know, [00:13:00] them achieve their objectives.
And it's a funny, you were saying earlier about, you know, I didn't want to be in a sales role because people have a narrative in their head. I heard you and Phil talking about it recently that you have a narrative in your head about what sales is. What, what fascinates me though, is if you turn that round and go, can I help you achieve your objectives?
If you turn that round and go, can I help you buy, cause you're going to make a buying decision anyway. So actually I'd love that buying decision to be with me. And then what we've got to do is work that through. But it also takes a a confidence, I suppose, to say that means in some years, in some periods, this is going to go really well because I know I'm doing the right thing. But in some periods, it might, you know, drop a quarter or drop through a year rent, but I still know I've done the right thing. And now I've got to trust my organization that I've done the right thing. You know, and I worked in KPMG as you do, you know, and they, and all the way through when I've not had to come through the numbers in a certain year, people [00:14:00] can see I've done the right thing.
I've built the relationships it's coming. So that's the balance, I think. I think that's harder today, by the way, than it was five years ago, 10 years ago, just because of that pace that everything's moving at.
Helen Wada: mm-hmm
Karl Edge: I also think it's an interesting challenge for everyone listening, which is if you are going on to a client call, and it might be a call, by the way, that you've really worked hard to secure and know the individual you're speaking to is really busy.
But when you come on the call, or when you meet them, you can see and tell.
that
they're very stressed by whatever's going on around and the ability to be human at that point and go, do you know what, let's not do this meeting.
now. I
know, I know that we spent a lot of time trying to get to this point, but I would rather give you the 45 minutes or hour back and rearrange.
Is that all right? And I've done that four or five times in my career. And all that's happened is the client's got, Oh, thank you. That is, is brilliant. And, and then the meeting goes in relatively quickly within the next few weeks. [00:15:00] And then he's a better meeting and we move the relationship forward faster than anything we've done before.
Helen Wada: And, and I've had the same thing where somebody, you know, you've been in a conversation and a secretary assistant has, has popped in like twice, three times within the first 50. And you're like, actually something is far more important than what we're having here. And it, for me, in the, you know, I talk about the human, the human framework in, in human advantage, the A for me in the human is how you act.
So when you go in that presence. But then you adapt, and that for me is absolutely key for the human centered leadership and client facing conversations, because it's about. Recognizing it's tapping into our senses again, each drawing on these coaching capabilities that says, actually, we are all human.
What am I noticing? What am I feeling? And for me, going back to what you're talking about, that human being, not human doing, we can only start to sense ourselves. We can only start to sense others and what's really going on. Yeah. [00:16:00] If we are breathing, pausing, focusing to actually acknowledge what is happening in front of us, rather than railroad through what we might've planned for three or four weeks, really quite isn't appropriate.
Karl Edge: Nah, completely. But, but it's not easy. It's not easy because we're in a world of task and doing.
Helen Wada: So,
so in that, so in that answer, what, what do you do in your pearls of wisdom? Being human wise, what in your, you know, 30 plus years of experience have you done? Cause it is about resilience, about maintaining energy momentum. What is it? That you've developed over time, because I think it is something that we all develop over time, as you say, we're not all brilliant at it, but, you know, my kids will still say to me, mommy, you're really not listening to me.
No, no, I'm probably not
but it's certainly got better. What is it over time you've developed that enables you to be like that in the moment and really focus on? What's important to either your team members or, or clients.
Karl Edge: [00:17:00] So, so there's a, there's a few things that work for me. And, and again, I'm very, very conscious that I wouldn't make the assumption it works for everyone.
but,
Practical Tips for Being Present
Karl Edge: But it's things like let's just take the team's world we live in today. The team's world we live in today, you know, often these things are back to back to back to back.
And at one level, we feel more human because we've got an insight into people's world, but at another level, it's less human because they're all back to back to back to back. So what I do with my team and often with my clients is I say, let's do 45 minute meeting, but then be really intentional about what you do with the other 50.
And what I mean by that is I have five minutes where I walk outside and just try and get some fresh air. I have five minutes where I go and get water to hydrate and I have five minutes where I go back before the next call to just sit and breathe and be mindful and to remind myself that when I go on to the next call, I'm going to be fully present and over time, I've played, I don't do that every day, I don't do that in every meeting because life isn't that [00:18:00] straightforward, what I've observed in practicing that as a routine, Is I've had better outcomes in the conversations I've had.
I've had better feedback from people in the conversations I've had. Cause effectively, if you think about it, I'm, I'm doing something for my brain. I'm doing something for my body. I'm doing something for my soul.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Karl Edge: And then I'm in. And now I'm a, I'm a, I, you know, my, my team, my teams and my clients aren't looking at someone who looks like they're anxious, who's looking like they're busy, who's looking like they're just trying to get stuff done, and he's a bit frantic. They'd sense a level of calm, and I do think in today's world, that's missing often. And so when you come with someone who has a sense of calm, you sort of, Calm yourself,
Helen Wada: It's really interesting that it says the impact that you can have on other people. So one of the things, again, I talk about the human framework, the H is how you show up because actually you can only [00:19:00] control really how you show up with, with how that has on the impact that it has on who you are with.
Again, you know, I, I take the coaching piece, why do people open up to me as their coach? Because actually when I show up, I am fully present. I am creating a psychological safe space. I am showing that I'm in control. And actually, as you said, one size doesn't fit all, but it's about finding something that works for you.
We do run late for meetings, you know, things happen unexpectedly. But for me, I learned along the way is actually rather than being two minutes late, I'd actually rather be four minutes late and pause before I go into the room, whether it's a virtual room, whether it's a physical room, because actually.
You are far more present and the impact that you can make at that moment can win or lose you relationships. It can win or lose you team members in terms of the way [00:20:00] that you are seen in these conversations. Yeah,
Karl Edge: because I can imagine some of my team listening to this constantly get a little message from me saying, I'll be two minutes and they know I'll be two minutes is I've just come from another meeting. I haven't quite had that gap. I just need to stop, breathe, be thoughtful. So that when I joined that meeting two minutes late, I'm there and I'm present.
So I get that. The other thing is I'm a bit of an anorak around neuroscience. Completely unqualified for anyone listening just to be clear. It's just, you know, test and learn, playing around with how things work, but, but I did get introduced to the concept of mirror neurons and this point about you can infect people with how you are, whether that be positivity or negativity, whether that be franticness or calmness.
And I see that both one to one, I see that when I'm up on, you know, a stage and I'm trying to present to hundreds of people or sometimes thousands of people. And so it fascinates me that, you know, [00:21:00] if you go back to the sales pitch, you know, we've all done the old sales pitch where, when I started, you used to have to stand up at the front, you know, whereas now you sit around and have a conversation, but, but to, to infect people with positivity in that way, when you sat down is a different skill from doing it stood up.
So these are the learnings I think, as you go through. Your career, but they play exactly to the point you just made.
Stepping Out of Your Comfort Zone
Helen Wada: And it, it kind of leads us into that sort of stepping out of your comfort zone piece, because actually some of the things, and you know, you and I have Number of years through our careers, hopefully still quite a long way to go and lots of impact to have, right? something about putting yourself out of your comfort zone to be able to grow, to be able to learn, to start.
Because I think one of the things, particularly with technical experts, people that are brilliant at what they do. It's one of the hardest things having been through school, having Maybe chosen a levels that you specialize having chosen a career where you're focused on being brilliant at, whether [00:22:00] it's law, whether it's accountancy, whether it's tax, whether it's engineering, and then you get to a broader place where you've got to have a broader commercial conversation.
And that is quite daunting for a number of people.
Karl Edge: Yeah, I mean, I think you're right at the heart of some of the challenges of the workplace today, actually, and certainly in leadership roles, you know, in there often, you know, in our world, there's a demand for specialism, technical specialism, sector specialism. But as you then get to a more senior level, there's also a demand to have a breadth of conversation.
And I think it's, I, I play around with a program called what shadow do we cast? Trying to get people to think about the shadow they cast as leaders.
Helen Wada: Yeah,
Karl Edge: And part of that is you know, you're, you're you learning start at the edge of your comfort zone. But by the way, all of our comfort zones are different.
So when you're working with a team, well, where's your comfort zone? If it's there, how do I help you just go to there? Because by the way, if I ask you to go there, you'll never get there.
there.
But whereas if it's [00:23:00] a broader comfort zone, then I can push a bit harder earlier. But, but if I can get you from four to five, that's the same value as getting you from eight to nine. And so there's, but that's about really being thoughtful about an individual. And then when you do that, what shadow do you cast? Then you're actually asking people, do you notice how you turn up for others? Just as you said earlier on and what do you look like at your best? And what do you look like at your worst?
And then part of the conversation is over the last few weeks, where have you been?
Helen Wada: yeah,
Karl Edge: Oh, well, actually I've had so much going on at home and, and then I had this really difficult client situation. I actually had a different performance review. That's probably then, you know, sort of infected other things I've been doing.
Self-Reflection and Personal Growth
Karl Edge: Brilliant. You noticed it. Well, okay. Let's think about what we, be kind to yourself. Don't beat yourself up. Think about what happens next time you're in that situation. And then what other. What are the things you do for yourself, [00:24:00] for your routines, that are going to enable you to manage yourself better next time.
Unlocking Potential in Teams
Karl Edge: And that's what, by the way, that's what fascinates me about doing the role I'm doing now. If I can unlock the talents and ideas of 18, 000 people, just 10 percent more,
That
a massive impact for themselves, for their clients, for their families, for their communities. That's what excites me about doing these sort of roles.
The Importance of Awareness
Helen Wada: And I think you mentioned something that is about awareness. So something for me is unless we were aware of it. can't do anything about it. So again, comes back to that busyness piece, but actually one of the benefits of slowing down and being is actually being aware of, you know, how many people really, really, if we're honest, reflect back on meetings, whether it's with, you know, whether it's a team member, whether it's performance conversation, whether it's with a client, how did that go?
You
know, how often was I speaking versus how often were they [00:25:00] speaking? Was I really being curious?
What,
What was it that we wanted to achieve? What was it they wanted to achieve? And did we get anywhere close? And, and if not, what would I do differently next time? And so there's something about, you know, review, reframe, reflect, and then you go again, because that's how.
You continue to learn and, and gain the confidence and, you know, sometimes things might not go as well as we thought we'd hoped they would, but actually you do something different next time.
Karl Edge: Yeah. Well, some of your biggest learnings in, you know, you and I have both had meetings, which have gone horribly wrong. That's life. Yeah.
Adapting to Hybrid Work Environments
Karl Edge: Well, as long as you take the learnings out of them and understand why that was the case, I think there's a really interesting point in this, which is one of my observations now in the way that we work very much in a hybrid way.
Is in the days where many of our meetings were face to face, let's take client meetings as a classic or meeting a new business, let's take There was [00:26:00] this natural moment of briefing because you have to travel to the client and debriefing because you typically left the client and went to a coffee shop or walked back to a car or train station.
And
then we became much more efficient because we were doing everything on teams. But what I observed is the best teams were still building in that, that briefing and debrief either side of the client call. And actually many teams were. And so suddenly we were missing the opportunity to do that brief and debrief because suddenly that was three calls, not one call.
And so that's fascinating how that's played out a little bit.
Helen Wada: And I think I was, I think it was the conversation I had with Phil that just launched last week was around. Actually how teams has in a way you are in, you can see my daughter, the top loft bedroom here, right? In one way, we've kind of seen a little bit of a light into, into human people and what's going on, you know, you might have a guitar or whatever in the [00:27:00] background, but on the other hand, it's made us almost more formal because that sort of picking up the phone that I will just, you're like, Oh, well, I'll put a team's meeting in and then I'll wait for a couple of days.
Well, actually you can get it done in five, 10 minutes. By, by picking up the phone. And then I think the other thing that's quite interesting, I think this applies to the conversations that we're talking about, how are you in the room?
Building Rich Conversations Virtually
Helen Wada: Is a lot of the richness of conversations sometimes would come after the meeting with a client when you're walking out the door and actually that's when you find out what's really important to them personally, you know, that maybe somebody is not very well in their family or.
You know, where are they really going in their career and what's really going on in the business that they might not want to say in front of everybody in the room, but you get that richness. And I think there's something about how can you make sure that you get that
depth
conversation when you are operating in a virtual world.
And it's, [00:28:00] it's not always easy, but I think it's, it's, it makes it even more important about how we show up and who we are as human beings to make that human connection in the first place.
Karl Edge: And then it's that contact point in between, isn't it? And you'll have it with your own team, same as with your clients, which is about this sort of person who would like a quick, prefer, you know, an old fashioned phone call where you just quickly call and say, look, a couple of things we need to do. Would they be the sort of person who go, just drop me a text or a WhatsApp and I'll ping that back to you, you know, which isn't dealing with anything technical, but it's dealing with things that are human. And so they're, they're back to the little one percents. Yes.
But,
But look, this is, this is more jazz than it is science because actually what works for you might not work for the next person. And so that's where you think you've got to be deeply curious and I
I
think it's really interesting. We live in a world of mass personalization. And yet what we've learned over the years is the more personalized we were, the better we were with our, with our people, with [00:29:00] our clients. And now technology is helping us do mass personalization, but is it getting us closer to people? And that's, you know, and that's the interesting talent. Yeah.
The Role of Mentorship
Helen Wada: it's, it's taking that. And I think for people that are embarking on their career, you know, maybe earlier, earlier stages, the importance, I know that this is something that you're passionate about. So the importance of finding mentors about finding role models that are right for you. And, you know, people may look up and go, do you know what?
I don't want to be like Karl. I don't want to be like Helen. I don't want to be like Joe or James or whoever it is. I want to be me. And I think that's something that's really important, that authenticity at the workplace.
Karl Edge: Yeah.
Helen Wada: for me, it's about encouraging. People to go and seek out mentors, to go and be asked to go to meetings, work, shadow, do whatever that you can to help you find what's important to you.
And I know that's something you're, you're really passionate about at KPMG.
Karl Edge: Yeah, I
The Power of Reverse Mentoring
Karl Edge: think mentoring is hugely important, but I also think we've seen the evolution of mentoring over the years. [00:30:00] Because reverse mentoring was something that, you know, probably came out, you know, I'll probably come out many, many years ago, but has only become more mainstream in recent years. You know, so therefore trying to understand the next generation while they're trying to understand, you know, frankly, your generation, that that's quite an interesting thing to think about.
I mean, it's, it's, I always reflect on when. Well, when we were doing a black heritage, reverse mentoring program actually I, I got paired with a guy called Sean, we were working together, you know, he was helping me understand things that where I grew up, I wouldn't understand. Now, interestingly, as you know, I'm one of our social mobility advocates.
I came from that background, he didn't come from that background, so therefore we were able to share both ways. But the power of that was when he left KPMG, we kept in touch. In fact, we're four or five years later now, he's moved to two or three organizations, and we've still kept in touch. Because we both valued having those conversations with each other.
And that, for me, is the power of mentoring. It shouldn't just be a task. [00:31:00] Right, you've got six one hour meetings over the next six months. Well done, everybody. Actually find the connection and they become things that you will prioritize and put time into forever, you know,
what
Helen Wada: that links into, you know, we talking about business development, talking about sales, which is something, you know, I'm, I'm passionate about. It's the power of the network about following your interests, about following interests, not just because there's an opportunity or an immediate piece of work that you might work, but actually you're curious, you're interested in them.
You're, and actually. If a relationship doesn't work, then that's what you pass the relationship onto, maybe somebody else where there is that chemistry, where it will connect. Cause I think so many times we think, you know, it's like me with spreadsheets. I mean, my husband, he laughs at me cause I'm the non financy finance one, you know, and I've done everything possible to move away from spreadsheets.
And I kind of, I think I've done quite well, but I have to see them a little bit. But it's about finding what works for you. [00:32:00] And connecting with people where you've got that chemistry, you've got that fit, you get each other and you can therefore challenge each other and have built connect relationships for the longterm.
Amazing.
Karl Edge: that me and my wife started on the same day. One of the then partners became a mentor to both of us.
And what is amazing is like, you know, this has been 34 years later he's nearly 70 now and the three of us went out to dinner the other night. You know, and he's still giving me a hard time and telling me the things that I've been doing, which is amazing.
And, and he's saying the same to Kate and we're talking about, and I just think that's, I never needed, none of us set off on that to be the plan. And yet the richness. And the trust, the psychological safety that comes with that conversation of someone who's, you know, been gone from the firm actually for like 14 years.
And yet they're still learning, you can still learn from. And I think that's the thing for me, you know, you've got to [00:33:00] keep thinking who, who can I keep learning from?
Helen Wada: And that psychological safety is so important to be able to challenge, to be able to challenge each other, challenge your team members, challenge your clients
a way that
in a way that builds trust and respect that he can challenge you. And you're going to go, okay. That's really, you know, it's that again, I draw on the coaching skills, but it's creating insight.
How can you create insight by you're not just a yes, man, yes, woman, you're, you're creating insight by asking questions, by offering a perspective based upon what you've heard. And you can't do that unless you've really focused and you've really listened to what's going on.
Karl Edge: Yeah, I, I, I talk a lot to teams about building a trust of intent, you know, how do I work with my own teams to get them to trust my intent? How do I make sure I take the time to do that? Because then we can have much more open conversations. You know, many people listening to this will be familiar with [00:34:00] Lencioni's work.
And, you know, and I often use that framework of just thinking about once you've built intent and trusted intent, then you can get into that constructive conflict because we care enough to have the conversations where we learn, but you do have to, I think, earn the right to do that. I think you have to think about how you do that.
And that's the same, whether it be with your own teams well, whether that be with a client, you know, that's the, that's my point from earlier on about, you know, the people element and the commercial element at two sides of the same coin.
Excellent.
Helen Wada: as I describe it, you know, in terms of intertwining commercial and coaching principles to be human at work. And that, for me, that's where this podcast, that's where the book that ultimately would come out this time next year, fingers crossed. I've still got a fair bit to write, but I've got a plan.
Karl Edge: Excellent.
Helen Wada: But, but that is the thesis in terms of how can we be both. [00:35:00] Commercially focused with a coaching approach to really be more human at work to respond to where we started this conversation, everything that's going on in the world, that's not going to change the pace is going to keep up and it's going to change more rapidly than you and I can ever believe, but ultimately we're still a human race that needs to operate and, you know,
going within that.
Karl Edge: And I think we didn't quite touch on it, but I think it's really interesting to think about what's my identity in the middle of that. You know, I always talk to our new partners about, congratulations. It's amazing. You've made a partner. But I don't want being a partner to be your identity. I want it to be a part of who you are, but actually, I want your identity to be that mother, daughter, son, friend, husband, wife, spouse, whatever it might be.
Because then you're a richer, rounded individual,
And
then you will be more resilient in what you're dealing with. And it's really dangerous if you allow your identity to become the title [00:36:00] that you have. You know, because things change and the world changes. And so there's some thinking that to keep, even at moments of great success and congratulations, keep people grounded and remind them to keep a perspective.
Helen Wada: And that actually in itself takes time. There's a quote that I use in the program is from Aristotle. Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom and, you know, I'm picking who we are, who are we really as human beings? You know, we started the conversation. I read out, you know, your titles, what you do, all this great, but actually who is Kyle, you know, you're a husband, a father of three
Karl Edge: Yeah.
Helen Wada: you know, you're, you
I'm
conscious of time, things rapidly.
I'm going to ask one more question before we, before we get to close out, because starting where we started, a husband, father of three wonderful daughters, and you know, you've, you've had numerous career journeys so far.
Balancing Personal and Professional Life
Helen Wada: How have you maintained that balance of that family man, but, you know, being able to focus [00:37:00] on the career at work?
Cause it's not easy, right? Mother of two teenage boys.
Karl Edge: yeah, not, not easy at all. And you don't always get it right, but this is the power of the relationships you have. You know, I'm being very, very lucky to have met Kate. Yeah. And we've always had this open conversation about, right, is it working? Is it working? And there's times when it hasn't been working, you know, and then, and then those times you have to make decisions, you know, I always remember being, and I'm quite a structured individual.
Sometimes people think that I'm not very structured. I'm a quite,
Helen Wada: I'm, I'm the opposite, to be honest. My, I do hope
Karl Edge: one,
I'm a quite a structured individual, which means at the beginning of every year when the kids were in school. I would be like, right, let me get all the key dates. When's the parents evenings? When, when, when's the Christmas nativity should play? When's the end of school assembly? I'll have them in my diary and then nothing could go in their way.
And I remember actually changing roles once and going as the new senior partner in our Watford and Milton Keynes offices. And on day one, they said, right, the big CEO dinner, our big flagship event [00:38:00] is on the 29th of April. And that was my daughter's birthday. And I said, well, unfortunately, I won't be there. And they were like, no, no, no, this is the big flagship day. Now, what, what, what, what will we say? So we'll, you'll just tell them it's my daughter's birthday and we'd have. You know, these events regularly, it's really important to me because my daughter will never be 12 again
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Karl Edge: and
therefore I'm going to be there.
And that just set a tone. By the way, a lot of those clients who I then met went, Oh, good for you. You know, equally as I was coming through, and this is interesting given I was doing the markets role. I would say to my clients I'm not going to invite you to I don't know, a sporting event at the weekend because actually I'm more than happy.
We do breakfast, lunch or dinner in the week. But I'll only be out. And the deal was, I'm only going to do two nights a week.
and I'm not
I'm not going to do any weekends. And my clients went, do you know what? Thank you. Cause that's not for me. I'm going to come up with an excuse as to why I say no, because I'd rather be at home at the weekend. They're all human moments. And that's the thing for me is all the way through, you [00:39:00] know, they're all the 1 percent that tried to make a difference. You know, me and my wife had this big thing that when all our girls get to be adults, we want them to still spend time with us. And we're very fortunate now that we've reached that point and they did.
And not
Helen Wada: I, I'm praying and hoping I've got three years before the first one turns 18.
Karl Edge: in
but that that's success in our world. The rest of it's been brilliant, but actually that was the true success. And, you know, I'm very, very fortunate that with, with Kay and with the girls, we've been able to do that.
Final Thoughts and Reflections
Helen Wada: It, it is wonderful to hear car and, and it's truly been wonderful. To have you on the show. I, I hate to do this because kind of, we have to wrap up these conversations and actually we could keep on going for hours. But, but I am conscious that people listen in, in lunch breaks and things and you know, we should probably wrap up.
Before we go, there's a couple of things. So firstly, having sort of spoken about so much about being authentic by human at work, what, what would be sort of one tip, one insight that you would leave the listeners with? And then [00:40:00] on the other side, a good coach loves a good question. And I, I actually think that questions are, can be more powerful.
What question would you leave listeners with to think about reflecting upon what we've just spoken about? Hmm.
Karl Edge: So the. Insight, Joe, I am going to come back to something we touched on. Can you listen to someone rather than for something? You know, if everyone did that every day, that would make a difference to so many conversations, whether they be with teams or maybe with family, friends, whether they be with clients, can you just listen to some and resist the urge to listen for something that you didn't want to jump on?
That would be my insight. The question I'm going to have is, is slightly different to some of the stuff we've talked about, but it's one I like to ask a lot of people as we, as we work through the shadow we cast. Which is, what do you do that nourishes your soul? What do you do that nourishes your, and the reason I love [00:41:00] to ask that question is it takes your head to a completely different place.
Helen Wada: Mm.
Karl Edge: And then if you think about what you do, the follow up question is, how often do you do it? You know, you asked me earlier about my family. Well, one of the things that nourished my soul was time with the girls. And it's not always easy as every parent will know.
but
Overall, that's something that, that gave me energy, you know?
I, you know, I'm not someone who went off and did a load of sport and doing lots of other stuff, but other people that nourishes their soul. That's really important to them. You know, actually I love reading and I just catch myself thinking I haven't read for ages. Well, it doesn't matter what it is. It could be.
Yoga or it could be knitting. It doesn't matter what it is, but there's something that just makes you have that moment. How often do you do that? Cause they're the moment when you reconnect as a human being.
Helen Wada: And enable you to keep going. It's that body budget. It's that, what do you put in, in order to be taking out and, and, and whether you, whether you [00:42:00] need that on a weekly basis, whether you're somebody that can work quarter to quarter, but need a bigger break at the end, you know, again, we're all different, right?
It's what's right. And what's authentic for you.
Karl Edge: Completely. Absolutely. And don't, don't make assumptions about anybody.
Yeah.
Helen Wada: Karla has been absolutely wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you.
Karl Edge: I mean, like you
Helen Wada: Really excited. Look forward to seeing you again very soon and keeping the conversation around
Karl Edge: no, I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much.
Helen Wada: Yeah,
It's been great. See you soon.
Karl Edge: Yeah. Bye now.
You for listening to the Human Wise Podcast. Don't forget to check out the show notes below. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with your network. To get in touch, you can find me, Helen Water or the Human Advantage on LinkedIn, or visit www.thehumanadvantage.co uk. I'd love to hear from you if any of the topics discussed.
Resonated or struck inspiration. Let's keep this conversation going and [00:43:00] build better business together. See you next time.