Ep47: Building Better B2B Relationships with Ryan O'Sullivan
Unlock the secrets to building trusted business relationships that drive sustainable growth in today’s AI-driven world. In this Human Wise episode, I’m joined by Ryan O’Sullivan, senior executive, business advisor, university lecturer and author of Building B2B Relationships. Together, we explore why trust, empathy and curiosity remain the most powerful differentiators for leaders and organisations navigating change.
Topics Discussed
Rethinking the outdated sales stereotype
Emotional investment in business partnerships
Internal collaboration for revenue growth
Human connection as AI advantage
Relationship capital as strategic asset
Timestamps:
00:00 – 03:15 | Introduction
03:16 – 09:45 | Why Being Human Wins
09:46 – 15:30 | Rethinking the Sales Stereotype
15:31 – 21:00 | Emotional Investment in Trust
21:01 – 27:00 | Internal Collaboration Advantage
27:01 – 32:00 | The Human Edge in AI
32:01 – 37:00 | Three Steps to Trust
37:01 – 40:00 | Relationship Capital
40:01 – End | Final Reflections
About Ryan O’Sullivan
Follow @ryan-osullivan-uk on LinkedIn
Client relationship quality has never been more important than it is today. But how can we measure the quality of a one-to-one business relationship?
Ryan has spent the past five years researching this at Doctorate level, to define the factors that contribute to high quality B2B relationships. This involved conducting in-depth interviews with CxOs from FTSE 100 companies, including leading banks, retailers and petroleum companies. They explained specifically what the best partners they have ever worked with did that was so different from the rest, but also what the best individuals they have ever worked with did that made the partnership so uniquely successful.
The output is a comprehensive model defining six components of Relationship Capital (self-orientation, ability, effectiveness, honesty, commitment and benevolence), which must be applied in unison and must be underpinned by a strong work ethic. The research showed that along with all of this, to maximize the chances of relationship success, communication should also be adapted to suit the personality profile of the individual.
Ryan comes with over 20 years of sales experience, specialising in how to leverage relationships to grow large accounts faster, to increase the win rate of strategic deals and to penetrate prospect accounts more effectively
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Ep. 47 - Building Better B2B Relationships with Ryan O'Sullivan
[00:00:00]
[00:00:28] Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:28] Helen Wada: Hello and welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Ryan O'Sullivan with me today. Ryan is a senior executive board member business advisor. University lecturer, goodness Ryan. The titles, I could go on and on. But Ryan and I connected actually over the power of LinkedIn, quite frankly, Ryan when we first met, I think, wasn't it?
[00:00:54] And then we had a number of mutual connections and fundamentally both talking [00:01:00] about business relationships being human. And so I thought, why not get Ryan on the show and let's have a conversation about. Your view on business relationships, why they matter, and what we can do to strengthen them and grow our ourselves and our businesses.
[00:01:15] So welcome to the show.
[00:01:16] Ryan's Background and Career Journey
[00:01:16] Helen Wada: Tell us a little bit more about you, Owen.
[00:01:19] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah, thanks for inviting me, Helen. It's real pleasure. So, I guess about me living France, that's usually the thing that people are most intrigued about. So in the south of France, quite close to Nice. So I've been here for around eight years. Married, we've got my wedding anniversary next month, so it'll be 17 years.
[00:01:38] Married, 20 years together. I've got a daughter, she's 11. So yeah, that's the the family side of things and professionally. Been with a firm called In Introhive now. So they have a, a software that helps to identify, map and develop relationships. So it's certainly in my wheelhouse, but my, my love and passion and curiosity around [00:02:00] relationships started long ago. I'd been in the the, the sales domain, I guess for 25 years. And the, the most prominent role, I suppose was eight and a half years at Infosys. So that was where I really honed my, my trade, shall we say. And when I started my doctorate research into how to measure relationship quality and the interviews I did with key executives predominantly came from that, that network at Infosys. I've found that to be now, whether it's by by coincidence or whether it's deliberately targeting that specific sphere, but this whole thing around relationships and B2B relationships has turned into be my thing now.
[00:02:40] The Importance of Business Relationships
[00:02:41] Ryan O'Sullivan: So, I've written a book on that. I speak at different events and, and I just really enjoy just really exploring that, understanding relationships and, and it brings me into, into the orbit of people like you, Helen.
[00:02:52] So it's great.
[00:02:54] Helen Wada: And, and, and then it's, and it is been lovely to have the conversations and I, I must say for the, for the listeners here, [00:03:00] being, being human and honest, this is about our third take for this podcast. We've had a few technology issues, so, I, I'm gonna have to go and try and find a human being in the Riverside Studios to actually talk to.
[00:03:11] But we're hoping that this is, is gonna fly for us. And then really great to have you on the show, right? I mean, as you know, you know, my passion is really around being human at work and actually. Bringing my 25 years of commercial experience. I never wanted to be in sales. I, I never really wanted to be out winning work, but actually found myself in that role.
[00:03:31] And, and then really unpicking it and saying, actually, what were the skills? Why was I good at what I did? And, and it turned out when I unpicked that linking back into the coaching skills is that I had, and, and you know, really. The tool intertwined. And you know, your book about building B2B relationships is, is so important.
[00:03:51] And I'm really curious to take you back a little bit. So let's go back to your time at SY and talking about relationships.
[00:03:59] Building Trust in Business
[00:03:59] Helen Wada: What got you curious, and a question that I often ask the the guests on the show is, what does being human at work mean to you? And in the context of, you know, establishing trusted business relationships.
[00:04:13] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah. Well that's a good, good way to start, I guess. And I think profound. If, if I try and. Hang this together with like my own general answer to that question, but it, it is linked to the doctorate research I've done the book and other, other types of interactions I've had and, and just other inputs from other thought leaders in the space.
[00:04:34] I think one thing you can do is, is, is put yourself in the other person's shoes. There's different ways to describe that. You call that with the, with the trust equation, they call it the self-orientation. And, you know, different methodologies have different terms so they can put their own IP to it.
[00:04:52] But really it's about, if you think about any situation from the other person's perspective, I think that [00:05:00] helps you to, to relate to, to their predicament and helps you to relate better to them.
[00:05:08] Helen Wada: Which, which is Yeah, I absolutely agree with, and I think, you know, one of the other guests we, we've talked about this is they sort of put yourself in your shoes, but actually get inside their heads as well because it's actually, it's actually about understanding what's going on for them as an individual.
[00:05:24] But, but how do we do that? Because I know, particularly in professional services arena, and I know that you work a lot in the similar space as well, that technical experts often struggle with this, you know, the word of selling, you know, getting out there, you know, opening doors that is more about, you know, other people, but actually people turn inwards to say, well, I can't do that.
[00:05:48] That's not about me. What, what do you see? What, what has your research shown?
[00:05:54] Ryan O'Sullivan: Well, it's as strange as it sounds to say out loud, but the best way to sell is not to sell. [00:06:00] So, and especially if you're dealing with quite senior executives, I mean, it can be big companies and and small companies, but. If they're not interested in somebody selling to them, they're interested in someone that understands their business, understands their problems, is trying to help them or mitigate risks or achieve the opportunities that they see on the horizon.
[00:06:26] So I think that again, comes back to the putting yourself in their shoes or getting inside their head. If you really want to build a relationship with someone else, if you're central to that, is trust. That's, that's paramount. You cannot be considered from their side as someone trying to sell their wares. It won't work so that their guard will be up. But if you present yourself the someone that understands their particular direction of travel. Maybe something they're, they're particularly concerned about or a trend in the [00:07:00] industry or a, a unique perspective that, that they perhaps haven't thought about.
[00:07:04] They sometimes talk about helping them see around corners. You know, executives might say those types of use, those types of phrases. That really is relating to things that they, that you can help them with and whether you are an extrovert or an introvert. And I think there is a bit of a cliche around the, the sales person or the client facing person might be a better phrase to use the extrovert, the bombastic nature.
[00:07:30] They can have an answer for anything isn't necessarily the type of person that they, that. People want to, or, or open to build relationships with because they're too slick. And that, that ascent that again, can have a sense of being sold to or being a, a salesperson where the introverts or the people who are a bit unsure about themselves or the people that have more questions than answers, those people are [00:08:00] themselves open to be more vulnerable.
[00:08:02] And that is a great. Trigger for building trust. So if you're talking to someone and you're not understanding particularly what part of their business or a particular issue that they're talking about, and you're inquisitive unsure about certain aspects of that and that shows some sense of interest, then that is a way to open up that channel and start the the trust building process.
[00:08:28] Helen Wada: It's interesting, isn't it? And I, and I love the way that you've articulated that, you know, in terms of that inquisitiveness. You know, I use a little curiosity when, when I talk about. Sales conversations, winning work, but actually it's almost flipping it on its head because as you've, as you've said there, the traditional sort of mantra for a, a salesperson is that of somebody that's slick and I don't wanna say hy, but you know, confidence and knows [00:09:00] who they are and what, what exactly they're gonna bring to the table.
[00:09:02] Whereas actually what I've just heard from you, which is. Very much aligned to the thinking that I put forward in in the book that will be out next year, but also in the conversations that I've had in the podcast, is that actually the skills that you need to successfully build trusted relationships and to ultimately win work are actually some of those skills of humility, inquisit, inquisitiveness, and actually the complete opposite of what the world seems to think of a salesperson.
[00:09:32] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah. And it actually reminds me when you put it like that of a, a quote from my doctorate research. I interviewed CXOs, big global corporations, some of them, I mean CXO at JP Morgan, Amex, bp and when we were, you know, going through the detail, some of these people had spend over a billion dollars a year.
[00:09:52] They were, they were spending with, you know, a whole bunch of different vendors. And I interviewed them about the best relationships they've had with, with partner [00:10:00] suppliers, vendors, and what made them so special. But one, one point just triggered as you were talking there is that this individual, I think he was at bp, if I memory serves me correctly, was describing the best person he ever worked with, he said I could, when we was sat across the table and things weren't going right, I could see in his eyes how disappointed he was. could, I could see how much he cared and, and he said, felt he even cared more than members of my own team. So this was a vendor.
[00:10:31] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:10:31] Ryan O'Sullivan: Who was surp supplying services that were so invested emotionally
[00:10:36] Helen Wada: Hmm.
[00:10:37] Ryan O'Sullivan: in the outcome that they were visibly impacted when things were not going well. And, and that's something that struck a chord with this guy.
[00:10:45] And that, you know, that's one crucial element to, to this whole relationship. Com. Yeah, the re the overarching relationship piece, that's one of the layers, I guess.
[00:10:57] Helen Wada: So why is it, do you think [00:11:00] that.
[00:11:01] Challenges in Professional Services
[00:11:01] Helen Wada: People, because a lot of people, and you know, I talk about professional services, but actually in, in the broader world of work, you know, a lot of people, I don't want to go into sales. That's not for me, that job's, you know, I never wanted to be in sales. What, given what we are talking about, you know, you are talking about the emotional side.
[00:11:20] You are talking about that, looking into somebody's eyes. Again, it comes back to the somatic work that I do in coaching. Yeah. It's not just about what we have in our heads. It's about what's in your, your hearts and your guts as well, and getting inside of people. Why do we still have this issue with the mantra of the notion of selling and the skills and competencies that we need to grow our businesses?
[00:11:50] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah, that's, that's a question I don't have a complete answer to. I do recognize that that is certainly a problem, professionals. If you think [00:12:00] about in the legal space, in the accounting space, people have, people have trained for so long to be an expert in a particular field. So they're delivering services, you know, to, to solve those particular problems that they're trained in. But sales has always been a dirty word, hasn't it? Generally, and then in professional services, more so I think. Over time. I think it's getting better. I think people are recognizing that you need to sell in inverted commerce. You need to grow your business. You need to, and as, as the, like, the one firm mantra seems to be coming back again now.
[00:12:34] So you've got all the different service lines that you have at an organization. You may well be a particular expert in one service line and manage a se a book of business with clients that, and that's the, the lead service line for that particular client. And you are the lead. Partner, whatever it might be. But your, your organization may have 8, 10, 12, and like one of one of your previous organizations, [00:13:00] KPMV, I think they have over 40 service lines across four business units. So your mind to the fact that, look, there's a lot more we could potentially be doing with my client in inverted commerce. So. People understanding that whether you want to call that sales or not, or just understanding how you can better serve your client just an important process. And I think I, I presented it at a, a session, a board meeting actually at one of the Big four quite recently. And, and this was the theme. Actually it was about, look, how do we grow revenue in our key account? And, and I talked about this exact point around the, the data's out there and there's a lady called Heidi Gardner that that's published. She's a Harvard professor and researched this for many years and she's got a book about smarter collaboration.
[00:13:47] And, and she's done a lot of analysis to show that as you increase the number of service lines. Your revenue grows exponentially. So, but the funny thing is, and this was brought up in the meeting, it was almost a setup [00:14:00] because I was talking about that, and they said, well, we have Heidi Gardner here 10 years ago telling us the same thing, and now you are saying it 10 years later.
[00:14:08] But we're in the same situation. Why is that? Why aren't we able to collaborate better? Why aren't we able to recognize the fact that as we sell more service lines. Revenue will grow. And I think that is a problem that is now being really taken seriously because there's a lot of pressure to grow. But with the data to support that, I think it's it's, it's, this is the next, next wave, I guess, of collaboration.
[00:14:34] And I think it comes from internal collaboration across different lines of service to, to, again, back to the 0.1 firm and serve clients better.
[00:14:44] Helen Wada: And you talk there about building, we talk about building business relationships. So, you know, and again, we, we initially think about when you're winning work. We talk about building relationships with our customers, with our partners, but actually what that brings home is how important it is [00:15:00] to build relationships within your own organizations and.
[00:15:04] Maybe if you are a smaller organization, maybe that's with partner organizations. You know, I think in today's uncertain and complex world, there's no one size fits all. It's not just what I can provide to you or to others, but it's how you may have those capabilities within a large organization, or you may have a collection of smaller organizations that you need to understand comes back to that understanding point to be able to solve these complex problems because we can't do it on our own.
[00:15:34] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah, that's a great point as well.
[00:15:36] Leveraging Partnerships and Alliances
[00:15:49] Ryan O'Sullivan: And I, I think about one other trend that I'm seeing. Definitely in the last six to 18 months is this whole alliance partnership thing becoming a key theme across most of the global clients I'm dealing with. You know, when you talk about your strategy to grow, you, you know, grow your key accounts, win more strategic deals. You've got and I'm seeing more and [00:16:00] more often now better and stronger relationships with our alliance network and our partnership network for that particular reason. But these are big global firms. But in, in the example you just described, for smaller companies, I think that can be, again, a way to, to differentiate. When you're going to when you're going to to serve clients, you've got your own potentially sort of niche expertise. But if you can then bring partner with other firms that have their own unique expertise as well, and then bring that together and as a solution, then I think that can only serve you as well.
[00:16:35] And I, I actually presented another, another forum couple of months ago around this whole theme of, of the partner ecosystem. I can't remember the stat, but something like when you, when you go. To a deal with a partner, you'd got like a 40% better chance of winning. And, and often, you'll hear me talk about relat the, the intelligence gathering phase.
[00:16:58] So when you're building [00:17:00] relationships with key decision makers in, in the, with the intention to, to sell something or serve them, we should say, you know, serve them better. what, what you have to really understand is when you get that opportunity, you need to maximize that, and that is often based on how credible you sound and how, how well you can link your proposition and your talking points to their, their particular. Areas of interest and, and what I often talk about is the superpower is this intelligence gathering phase. So everyone can find out from ai, AI nowadays what's on the web or digital, but if you are talking to people in the organization and talking to partners in particular as well, and like as well as internal within the client organization, you can start to build quite a complete picture.
[00:17:52] And then when you start, when you get that opportunity to present to this. The executive, you've done your homework, they can see that [00:18:00] you have spent time to understand their business, and you, you've got particular nuggets of information that, that others don't have because this is through through, through conversations, through primary research, you would say,
[00:18:12] Helen Wada: Oh.
[00:18:13] Ryan O'Sullivan: Add.
[00:18:13] Helen Wada: Sure that it's about being human, isn't it, Ryan? I mean, you know, the, the heaven, heaven forbid, and, you know, I, I still come, almost every single con conversation comes back to it. You know, I know you work with a, a lot of technology that has got, you know, great ability to, to track conversations people are having over emails and so forth, and, and looking at what does a good relationship really look like.
[00:18:38] But, but ultimately what we're doing is we're talking about having conversations. We talked about getting out there and having conversations. We all recognize that AI is out there. That, but, but that almost just flattens the playing field. And so I, you know, as we look forward, you know, 2025 is the year of ai, you know, it, it's been [00:19:00] exclusive.
[00:19:01] Well, I fundamentally believe that 26, 27 and beyond. We will need to revisit and come back to how we are more human, how we are helping people to get confident and get out there to have those conversations because that's where I see people struggle. We almost know what we need to do, but actually it's that comfort with being uncomfortable with getting out and being curious.
[00:19:28] And I know in your research you did a lot of work. Thinking about building trusted relationships, what are the key steps? So thinking back to your career, thinking back from, you know, when you started to where you are now and the research that you've done, I'm really interested in what are those key steps that you need to take to be building and then maintaining relationships.
[00:19:53] 'cause it's not just about building at once in today's competitive world, that times will change. How [00:20:00] does one start to develop this for your experience? For your experience in research? So I'm really interested to hear for the listeners.
[00:20:08] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah.
[00:20:09] The Role of AI and Human Interaction
[00:20:19] Ryan O'Sullivan: And you, I just touched on one point you made about level AI leveling the playing field. That's exactly the way I feel, and I, so I didn't connect the dots until you just, you just did your last piece there, and you're exactly right with where the human element comes in. That's, I'm, I'm talking about talking to people and it is exactly that because AI is leveled the playing field.
[00:20:30] Everyone can find literally in 10, 20, 30 minutes of. Chat, GPT, what's going on? What are the key drivers? And and it's great. I'm not, I'm not knocking it 'cause it's very accurate, but
[00:20:41] Helen Wada: Saves a lot of time, right? I mean, you've check facts that you get, but
[00:20:45] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah, that's better and better, but others, others will have the same. So how are you differentiating yourself? And it's exactly through those conversations. It's through the coffee chats, it's through the conversations. We, you know, in inverted come as [00:21:00] the, the less senior people on, on the client side doing, putting the hard work into to talk to partners and maybe partners have got some relationships there, building the trust. That's the differentiator today, that before my differentiator was doing the research, preparing for the meeting, but now everybody's got that. So this is, this is the, the next, next vanguard, if you will, the next opportunity to, to really distinguish you from, from the pack. So that's one point.
[00:21:29] Steps to Building and Maintaining Relationships
[00:21:29] Ryan O'Sullivan: And then on what, what my research and my experience tells me about the process of building relationships.
[00:21:36] I went to that in, in two parts, really. So. The first thing is there's a, there's a phase that I talk about in my doctorate research, and I can give you the link so the listeners can go, if they're really interested, they can go to a big 70,000 words thesis. It, it's really available online actually, but,
[00:21:54] Helen Wada: And I know how many words that is now having just wr, having just finished the, the draft, I [00:22:00] know how.
[00:22:02] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah, I've got a good door stop over there, so I need one. So. But there's a there's a phrase I, I used called a mutual disclosure. So when you, you are making the effort to build a relationship with someone else, so that's, that's how these things tend to start.
[00:22:18] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:22:19] Ryan O'Sullivan: there's always a power imbalance. Then.
[00:22:20] It doesn't necessarily mean seniority, but you are the one making the move.
[00:22:24] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:22:25] Ryan O'Sullivan: are the one trying to build a relationship with this individual for whatever reason, can be personal as well as professional. It can be dating in that matter if, if, if you're, if you've, whatever the situation, but you are actually making the move to do something and you're trying to attract their attention.
[00:22:40] And what my research showed me, this is on the B2B side,
[00:22:43] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:22:44] Ryan O'Sullivan: personal side, but there are three things that are important in that, that first, getting to know someone, phage, where they go from, they don't know who you are. Two, I'm taking this person seriously and I'm going to invest in the relationship.
[00:22:58] So this neutral disclosure phase [00:23:00] was there. So first one is, again, I've mentioned this already, do not sell. So. That was common across all of the interviews I did. They not one individual from the people they were describing as the best they ever were with, they even considered to be a salesperson. They all were, but they never even realized that.
[00:23:19] So you can't be pushing something on them. You can't be too pushy. The second one is a bit more nuanced, which is clashes of personality. So
[00:23:28] Helen Wada: Hmm.
[00:23:29] Ryan O'Sullivan: when these executives were talking about. The, the, the good versus the bad. They were talking about how they had clashes with some people and it was, you just can't work with them.
[00:23:38] You know? It was like, well, it, it, there was just nothing really to do there, and they'd handled it in different ways, which you get into another time. But the point is, on your side, understand your personality and understand the personality of the person you're, you're trying to interact with. talk about in my book Social Styles, that's something you can find quite [00:24:00] easily on, on YouTube.
[00:24:01] You can get a five minute video that explains it, but all social, all all personality profiles follow the same type of format. But just to give you an example, one of the, one of the personality styles is called a driver, and that's someone who is very assertive. They want outcomes. They want to move fast.
[00:24:20] Fast. They're not interested in small talk. They tend to be. A bit less less emotive. And if you are what you would call in social style side and amiable, you are more chatty, friendly, smiling, small talk. But the problem is that irritates a driver.
[00:24:39] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:24:39] Ryan O'Sullivan: if you go to a meeting and you're having an agenda and you start chatting about the weekend and telling 'em about your kids, play football, you'll actually irritate them. If
[00:24:48] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:24:48] Ryan O'Sullivan: beating yourself, but it's useful for you to know that, that, that I could potentially irritate this person and I'm trying to build a relationship with them. So personality piece is, like I say, [00:25:00] is a nuance 'cause you have to be yourself, but also be self-aware again. Then the third part is about, again, I've touched on it already, which is about having something valuable, knowledgeable in insight that is beneficial to them.
[00:25:16] So this comes to doing your homework, doing those conversations, walking the corridors, and coming with some gathered perspective that that you know is going to interest them or intrigue them at least. So if you combine those three together in the right formula. That person will think, okay, right, I can, this person's got something that maybe is worth me investing.
[00:25:38] And then they'll open up, then they'll share some more information, and then you're on the pathway to building trust. So I'll pause there, but that's like this umbrella or the bridge between not knowing someone and then Right, you're on, you're on, you're on the right path. So,
[00:25:53] Helen Wada: Yeah,
[00:25:54] Ryan O'Sullivan: that helps.
[00:25:54] Helen Wada: it, it's interesting, I'm smiling because it's so in, in the book that that [00:26:00] will come out next year. I, I talk about, I, I basically put a hu human mnemonic at the center of, of the thesis, really, and it's, it's all about how you show up is the apes, how you show up and knowing yourself. Knowing what style you are, being confident in who you are, and then the you is about understanding others.
[00:26:19] It's exactly what you talked about. It's about understanding who they are, what's important to them from a personal point of view, a professional point of view. What's their style? You talk about, you know, do they like to just crack on with it or do they like a check? You need to know that, and actually, if the personalities don't work, there's no harm in calling it and saying, let's.
[00:26:40] Transition the relationship to another person. You know, too often I think people keep on with relationships and it's never actually gonna work. Whereas actually the the grownup thing to do is call it out and, and cut it. And then we move on to sort of, what is your mindset? How do you act and adapt in the, in the conversation?
[00:26:57] How do you follow the flow, create the [00:27:00] insight, and then how do you move forward? What are your next steps and how do you negotiate? Because it's not about one conversation, it's about, for me, it's about repetition.
[00:27:10] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah.
[00:27:10] Helen Wada: It's about building that rapport over time. You talk about building and maintaining relationships, but coming back to them after, you know, one month, two months, six months, and working out what the right cadence is.
[00:27:26] Ryan O'Sullivan: That's the point. I think there's, there's, there's a, know if you're familiar with the, the Dunbar number. This
[00:27:32] Helen Wada: yeah.
[00:27:33] Ryan O'Sullivan: No, it's about the number of relationships you can maintain at any one time. So I think he puts us about 120, 130. So that sounds like a lot, but that includes personal as well. You gotta include your family in that. So the, the process of of maintaining relationships is tough and you have to invest in that as well enough if you, again, if this power imbalances and it's you trying to build that relationship, you investing the time, you [00:28:00] can't have a strategy in place for everybody. So you've gotta be careful about where, which relationships you choose. To do that. But I think again, you've gotta be cognizant of the value that you need to, to provide to them to maintain that. But I think you also, putting that to one side, you also have relationships that, that may well be dormant, but they are strong. So I'm sure from your career in back at the KPMG days, and you know, other roles in the past where you've got a whole. Whole network of people that you could just pick up the phone. It might have been five years. Oh, they're great to hear from you. What are you up to? And you can just pick their brains on something. I can ask you a favor. And they'll be more than willing to do that. So I think that is also a real asset that people can think about as well, whatever they're trying to do, whatever. Endeavor they're on in life, whether it's personal or professional. Look at their network. Figure out what relationship capital they have, who can [00:29:00] they call on and, and also who can they call on for them to call on someone else? That's when you get the network effect, so
[00:29:06] Helen Wada: And, and I thank goodness there's, there's so many points in there, but it's that relationship capital is, is a really I love the phrase because it's actually, it's how can you help other, who can help you and how can you help others? 'cause ultimately it's a two way street. These relationships. Two way.
[00:29:26] If you end up always being the one that takes, you never build that relationship the other way. But I often say to people, what can you do for somebody else that doesn't cost you a lot of time, or doesn't cost you a lot of money, but actually does help to build that trust? You know, we started this conversation with how do you build trust and thinking about that.
[00:29:48] Ryan O'Sullivan: On that point also, you've got, sometimes you, you don't know where relationships will go, but you keep investing and beautiful things happen. So if you've got a great dynamic and you've got matching [00:30:00] personalities and. You actually enjoy spending time with people. I think now, thanks to, you know, there are some benefits to COVID.
[00:30:07] One of them was this shift to virtual meetings. And you can maintain those relationships quite adequately, in my opinion, virtually. And I've got a, a number of examples of where I've just had sort of quarterly with people, 15, 20, 30 minutes and nothing on the agenda. And you're just chatting, brainstorming. Sharing ideas, personal, personal issues, and, and professional endeavors. And, you know, multiple, one of those have turned into great things for me without realizing. One of them asked me to be on the board for his company. Another one, turned into something else. I put an investment in his startup.
[00:30:46] And, you know, other stuff like that just comes just from not knowing where things will go. But obviously you gotta be careful. You can't. Do that to too many people because you've got your day job, you've got your family and, and your own network. You've [00:31:00] got to maintain your own business. So, it's just, but it's just useful to, to, to think about this very objectively and holistically.
[00:31:10] Helen Wada: I think so, and I think coming back to that sort of Dunbar's numbers point is it's not, it's not a. Certain number, you know, it is not a fixed number. It has to be 120, 130. But it, I think it's the principle, isn't it? That we have to review the relationships and work out where we do invest our time and where we don't.
[00:31:32] And, and you invest to those ones you want to and, and deprioritize others. And, and your point about just going with the flow, sometimes I talk about one conversation at a time. When I looked back at why was I good at what I did, I didn't know. I had no idea. I'd never been trained in sales or winning what Ercot.
[00:31:52] I was like, well, what? And people would say, why are you good at what you doing? And I'm like, I dunno. But, but what I did was one conversation at a time. And I look back my [00:32:00] three years now that I've been running the Human Advantage, and I, I talk about it in the book. People would say, well, how have you, why are you doing that now?
[00:32:07] How are you working now? And I said, well, it was this conversation that led to that conversation that led to a recommendation. Now I'm doing some work with some different people that I didn't know 18 months ago, and it was no more than that. That curiosity, that inquisitiveness, that showing empathy for where they are and where they were trying to get to, that if there's an opportunity, great, and if not, will you, you deprioritize and you move on, but you might come back to it a different point in time.
[00:32:35] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, that's the beauty and the wonder of the world, I suppose. And I suppose as, as as the experience builds, you can then figure out sort of, it's you say, it can't be too mechanic. it, but you can, you can get a sense of where, where you should be investing your time and you need a better of luck as well, I suppose.
[00:32:55] And, and again, it's not just about what comes back for you because you're obviously helping them. And I [00:33:00] think the way there's a, if, if the listeners want to really understand relationships, the, the real, the theory that underpins all relationships, in my opinion, a thing called social exchange theory. So. That is exactly what you're describing here, and it's about this, this way that relationships work. So you put something in, they give something back, they feel compelled to help you. You help someone without any expectation. They come back like a game of tennis, back and forward, back and forward. And, but if you are constantly giving, as you alluded to before, without anything coming back, that's a negative relationship.
[00:33:35] So he is not destined to succeed, and that's on a personal level and professional. I think if you are working with the right people and, and helping them and showing willingness to support them with their particular problems, and they're in a position to help you and, and guide you and guide business your way, then you're on, you're onto a good thing.
[00:33:56] Final Thoughts and Conclusion
[00:33:56] Helen Wada: I'm conscious of time. I could talk on this topic all day. I'm conscious that you [00:34:00] and I are probably both relationship people. You know, we, we like getting out and having the conversations. I know I work with a number of people that are less confident in that and are, yeah, just, that's not me, that's not my star.
[00:34:15] What would your advice be to them?
[00:34:18] Ryan O'Sullivan: Well, I think it all starts with, look, what? What's, what are you trying to achieve? So you want to sell them something if you're in sale, do you want a promotion? Do you want a new job? Do you want some information about going to Tuscany a holiday? it is that you, you got to start with a north star, however big or small it might be, then I'd be thinking, you can, what, who can I talk to that can potentially help me? And my whole philosophy of life is relationship first. That's my, we didn't get into it much today, but I think the, the cold outreach model for sales is really under threat because of ai. We touched on it briefly, but so I [00:35:00] really evangel this relationship, first approach to doing business, the human. Advantage, as you would say. But I think if you are sure where to start, start by thinking about what are you trying to achieve? You know, have some type of objective and then think about your network. And I think there's a, you know, there's, the universe will give you what you ask for in some ways.
[00:35:22] I know there's, there's the philosophies around that in life. But if you are thinking about something, maybe you want to write a book like you and I have both done, or you want to start your own business, whatever it is. Start to think about that. Start to think about who can help you, who in your network can help.
[00:35:37] And then you'd be amazed how willing people are to help. And I know you, you've already said that I certainly invest time in helping people without expecting much back. And I think it, it, it, people may well be surprised that there's so many people out there that will, will support them, will give them advice, and, and they'll be they'll be on their way before, before they know it.
[00:35:58] Helen Wada: I, I think that's, I [00:36:00] think that's great and I think that's, yeah, a really nice way to, to summarize and conclude. Often ask for top tip, but I think you've just given it to us right there on a plate, Ryan, as as if you've read the script and, and there was no script because we do these very, very very naturally.
[00:36:16] But a good coach loves a good question. So I am gonna put you on the spot and ask for you to share a question for people to think about having just reflected on our conversations they've lived to ask. What question would you ask them to think about?
[00:36:32] Ryan O'Sullivan: Yeah, well, I think I would have to devolve back to what I just said in some ways, so. I, I mean, look, without answering this in a, in a, a bit more of a convoluted way, the reason I wrote my book now is, is because there was a gap in the relationship piece, building relationships. So the, my book was about you need to identify the people that can help you. Before you've decide [00:37:00] who you need to build relationships with. 'cause sometimes you can get a bit misguided. So I suppose that the question relate links back to what I said before about what's your north star, what's your objective? And then identify the right people that can help you. And then. that pathway to them.
[00:37:17] So that's, that's probably the philosophy that I think some people may struggle with. I certainly did. You tend to gravitate towards who you know, but without figuring out, who do you want to know?
[00:37:29] Helen Wada: Yeah, I mean that's, I think that's great advice and great question for people. And it's, it's not an easy one. None of these questions are easy, but it does get us to think, thank you so much for joining me on the show, Ryan, it's been delightful to have a conversation all about relationships. Where can we find your book, building B2B relationships, how to identify, map, and develop key relationships to win more business?
[00:37:52] Where can we, where can we find it?
[00:37:54] Ryan O'Sullivan: Amazon is, that seems to be the place to be. So I did hit them before on the [00:38:00] Amazon bestseller list for international books, but that was when it first came out. I'm way down on the list now, but yeah, you can get on to Amazon and you can get in touch with me directly. I tend to just focus on LinkedIn, so drop me a note drop me a connection request and I'd be happy to chat and, and discuss these things in, in more detail for anyone that's, that, that wants to.
[00:38:22] Helen Wada: Brilliant. Well, look, it's been wonderful to have you on the show. I've really enjoyed our conversation and look forward to seeing you again. Too.
[00:38:28] Ryan O'Sullivan: Thanks, bye.
[00:38:29] Helen Wada: Take care. Bye-bye.