Ep57: Curiosity as Competitive Advantage - How Leaders Stay Relevant in the Age of AI with David Feavearyear
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What does it take to stay relevant in a world where technology is accelerating faster than ever? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by David Feavearyear, commercial leader, Chief Procurement Officer at Liberty Global, and MD of Procurement Solutions at Liberty Bloom. Together, they explore the intersection of strategy, AI, leadership and human capability.
Drawing on over 25 years of experience across commercial negotiation, procurement and enterprise technology, David shares why curiosity, long-term thinking and human judgement are becoming the true competitive differentiators. As AI increasingly handles technical and repeatable tasks, leaders must double down on the human layer. This conversation challenges leaders to rethink relevance, resilience and the way they create sustainable commercial value.
Topics Discussed:
What it means to stay relevant in the age of AI
The difference between hard skills and human skills
Why curiosity drives commercial growth and leadership impact
Balancing short-term shareholder pressure with long-term strategy
How AI creates efficiency but not connection
Building trust in hybrid commercial relationships
Creating space for thinking in high-pressure environments
The link between leadership, sales and sustainable growth
Timestamps:
00:00 – 02:00 | Introduction: David’s journey from philosophy to procurement leadership
02:01 – 06:00 | Negotiating on both sides of the table
06:01 – 10:30 | Why business exists and the tension between people and profit
10:31 – 15:00 | Burnout, shareholder pressure and human-centred leadership
15:01 – 18:30 | Hard skills vs human skills in an AI-enabled world
18:31 – 22:30 | AI as accelerant and the relevance question
22:31 – 27:00 | Trust, rapport and commercial relationships in hybrid work
27:01 – 31:00 | Long-term relationship building vs short-term targets
31:01 – 34:30 | Strategy back thinking and sustainable value creation
34:31 – 37:30 | Creating space, delegation and leadership maturity
37:31 – 41:30 | Curiosity as competitive advantage and the future of relevance
About David Feavearyear:
Perpetually curious and a lifelong learner, David is a commercial leader with 20+ years in technology, broadcast, telco, and media. A poacher turned gamekeeper, he’s negotiated from both sides of the table. Now Head of Procurement Solutions at Liberty Blume, he’s an expert in enterprise tech, public cloud, and professional services. He blends automation expertise with academic insight from his doctorate. Expect pragmatic, future-proofed advice—insightful, direct, and always rooted in experience.
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Ep57: Curiosity as Competitive Advantage - How Leaders Stay Relevant in the Age of AI with David Feavearyear
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[00:00:30] Helen Wada: Welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have David Pier here with me this morning.
[00:00:38] Helen Wada: David's bio reads as follows. He's perpetually curious and a lifelong learner, a commercial leader with 20 years experience in technology, broadcasting, telco, and media. David and I crossed paths many moons ago now, and we've always kept in touch and had a. Similar interests [Mic bleed] you know, how human beings [00:01:00] shape the world of work and also technology and how that, how the two interplay together.
[00:01:06] Helen Wada: He's a poach return gamekeeper. You can tell us a little bit more about that in a moment. David negotiated from both sides of the table and now head of Procurement Solutions at Liberty Bloom. He's an expert in enterprise technology. Public cloud and professional services and blends automation expertise with academic insight from his doctorate and his book around organizational decision making in the age of ai.
[00:01:31] Helen Wada: And David, I'm delighted to have you on the show this morning and cannot wait for the conversation.
[00:01:36] David Feavearyear: Great to great to be with you, Helen.
[00:01:39] Helen Wada: And so
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[00:01:40] Helen Wada: little bit of the professional side of you, David. But tell us a little bit more about the human side. We're talking about being human on this podcast.
[00:01:47] Helen Wada: Who is David?
[00:01:48] Who Is David
[00:01:48] David Feavearyear: Yeah, so I mean, that's a very good question. So I think it's actually closer to 25 years now that I've been working. But um, yeah, I, when I left school, I went to university and did a philosophy degree. Partly 'cause I was given some advice by a [00:02:00] teacher who said, just go and do something you love and then let the future take care of itself once you've done that.
[00:02:05] David Feavearyear: So, I did philosophy and I came outta university and realized that wasn't gonna get me the type of job I wanted, so I immediately did a master's degree in it. And that landed me my first role in a technology company back when the technology bubble was still growing. Yeah, at 1999 and I quickly decided that actually I hated working on technology projects.
[00:02:26] David Feavearyear: But I really liked the human side of business. So, at the time I wanted to move into into sales. So something where I could be very customer focused. At the time I didn't have graduate scheme for salespeople, so, for twist of FI got asked to interview for a role in commercial, so effectively negotiating the deals that we were selling to customers.
[00:02:46] David Feavearyear: At the time, I'd never read a contract in earnest as it were. I got chucked to a hundred page agreement, told to take the afternoon off and come back and tell the commercial director what I thought next day. So I did, I'm sure what I said the next day was [00:03:00] complete nonsense, but clearly there was enough nuggets in it to to justify giving me a chance.
[00:03:04] David Feavearyear: And and that was really the start of my career.
[00:03:06] From Sales to Procurement
[00:03:07] David Feavearyear: So I spent the first 10 years or so in commercial roles in a number of different companies, but effectively. Being the hybrid between business, technology and the legal function and accounting to effectively structure and negotiate the deals we were selling to customers.
[00:03:22] David Feavearyear: So really kind of interesting 10 years that saw me do everything from large outsourcing deals to effectively buying satellite space from the Luxembourg government when I was at NCR broadcast. So really varied. And then I was asked to effectively move into procurement in one of my roles. So we were setting up a procurement function.
[00:03:42] David Feavearyear: It was still relatively nascent, but we had pockets of procurement all over the organization. And so I was asked to lead
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[00:03:49] David Feavearyear: to join that company to sort of lead the formation of a global team. And so the next 15 years of my career, I've spent on the other side of the table. So I spent the first side negotiating from a [00:04:00] customer perspective.
[00:04:01] David Feavearyear: The second side, negotiating from a procure perspective. So in both sides. And I think I think it's been, you know, a really interesting mix of experience
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[00:04:11] David Feavearyear: I spent 10 years at a company called Pearson so the largest education company in the world.
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[00:04:17] David Feavearyear: company that's 175 years old bizarrely it built the Blackboard Tunnel.
[00:04:21] David Feavearyear: It's had all sorts of iterations over its time. And when I joined, we were desperately trying to digitize the organization to make it relevant in the enabled future that we're marching towards. After 10 years there. I was CPO head of real Estate. I've got some other bits and pieces as well.
[00:04:39] David Feavearyear: But I've really done everything I was gonna do at Pearson and the company was, a point where I felt it was time to go do something different.
[00:04:46] Career Break Travel Reset
[00:04:46] David Feavearyear: So to to your point about human side my wife and I had always wanted to to go traveling and to, and we'd sort of planned a career break. So not something we did spontaneously, but something that had always been on our sort of life agenda, [00:05:00] if you like.
[00:05:00] David Feavearyear: Yeah. To do at some point. We decided the timing was as good as it was ever gonna get, so we, so cautions of the winds walked away from both our jobs and spent 12 months traveling the world which was amazing, which was awesome. So I think we did 210 locations, 30 odd countries. My footprint was pretty horrendous.
[00:05:19] David Feavearyear: I think we did over a hundred flights in 12 months. But it was amazing. And and when I came back. When we came back, we were deciding what to do next which was when Liberty bloom came knocking. And what I really liked about the idea of. Bloom was that it was taking something I knew well, so procurement and effectively leveraging the heritage that we've got to sell that to third party customers.
[00:05:43] David Feavearyear: So I guess wear both hats now. So with one hat, I'm Chief Procurement Officer of Liberty Global with the other hat. I'm MD Procurement Solutions at Liberty Bloom. So fundamentally, I have both sides of the table in my day job, which is a good way of keeping you, humble shall [00:06:00] we say? Yeah,
[00:06:01] Helen Wada: absolutely.
[00:06:02] Helen Wada: And what a fantastic story. And the, the traveling bit. I'm kind of, you know, I'm gonna dive into the business part in a moment, but I have to say the traveling bit really resonates with me from a human perspective. You know, many years ago before.
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[00:06:15] Helen Wada: I had our two boys. We did similarly, we did six months.
[00:06:19] Helen Wada: But equally, [Mic bleed] such a poignant time in our life and I think shaped us when we talk about being human at work, when we look back and what are the experiences that have really shaped us as leaders, as human beings, you know?
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[00:06:35] Helen Wada: seeing the diverse cultures, it's seeing the ways in which people work in different ways.
[00:06:42] Helen Wada: And I think that's so important as we are coming into the world right now, because quite frankly, everything is being thrown up in the air. And actually you, you shifted and I'll be interested to dive in, you know, going from philosophy to technology to negotiation, to human-centered [00:07:00] business. You know, those were lots of different areas of focus that you are now knitting together.
[00:07:06] Helen Wada: And I think certainly what I'm seeing
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[00:07:10] Helen Wada: it's no longer a marketplace where one specialism overrides the other. It's about blending the together. And this humanity at work sits right at the heart of it because ultimately, why does business exist? I mean, these are big questions. I ask who are you?
[00:07:26] Helen Wada: But. Let's face what, why do we exist? These big questions about organizations. What are they driving for and the people within them, and what does that mean for you?
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[00:07:38] David Feavearyear: I mean, it's a great question and it is one that I guess, people have been grappling with for years. But I mean, if you took an economic view of a business, for example, you'd say that businesses exist to create value for their shareholders.
[00:07:49] David Feavearyear: You know, that, that would be the rational way of defining a business. You know, for the large part, if you're not making money and generating return for your shareholders, then fundamentally your business is not sustainable. So [00:08:00] there's definitely a piece about shareholder return if you look at it from an economic perspective.
[00:08:05] David Feavearyear: But there are a whole bunch of shareholders, or sorry, stakeholders that exist outside of that shareholder base. So you've got your suppliers and your customers. And fundamentally, the only way you generate shareholder return is to delight your customers. Yeah. And for most organizations historically, the only way you've been able to delight your customers has been to have really fantastic people.
[00:08:26] David Feavearyear: And so, you know, for years, leaders have said. You know, our core asset is our people in many of the organizations I've worked in anyway. And so therefore you would argue that if the economic rationale is to generate shareholder return, if the way to do that is to delight the customer and the market that you address and the way to do that has always been centered in the great talent that you assemble around you.
[00:08:52] David Feavearyear: Fundamentally, most of business comes down to how you get the best
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[00:08:57] David Feavearyear: whether that's on the customer side or supplier side, or [00:09:00] your in talent side. You know, people are the essence of how you show up every day. And I think therefore it's somewhere in that hybrid that kind of explains why we get up in the morning and what our role is as as leaders.
[00:09:12] People Burnout Reality
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[00:09:13] Helen Wada: think there is a stretch there and, and I, get what you're
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[00:09:16] Helen Wada: I would add maybe that actually, you know, what you are then seeing is people as assets. And I think where we've been over the last few years
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[00:09:26] Helen Wada: those people, those assets of the organization have been worked to burnout, quite frankly, in terms of they're all being asked to do more for less.
[00:09:38] Helen Wada: They're asked to be, you know, working more hours. They're asked to be delivering with fewer. Team members because of cost cutting, because we're driving ultimately to the shareholders. And so what you end up with is organizations that are centered around creating value for customers.
[00:09:55] Helen Wada: Talking
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[00:09:56] Helen Wada: being all about the people.
[00:09:59] David Feavearyear: Yeah.
[00:09:59] Helen Wada: But [00:10:00] actually the people are at burnout The way in which they're going about it is not a human centered way. It's driven by the numbers rather than the people. And that's, you know, one of the reasons why I set up human wise when I'm talking about the book is how can we be more human centered as organizations to deliver the outcomes we need to for our customers.
[00:10:23] Helen Wada: Recognizing that it's a collection of people that are here in, in the organizations. Yeah.
[00:10:28] David Feavearyear: I think that's right. And I think,
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[00:10:30] David Feavearyear: it's interesting that you use the word asset because I agree with that. You know, people are an asset, but how you how you extract value from an asset is not working it into the ground as it were.
[00:10:40] David Feavearyear: So you people aren't commodities is probably the way I'd describe it. They are assets. And you, for the large part, get the best out of people by understanding what makes 'em tick, by providing things like psychological safety. Particularly in a world where people are expected to experiment, to take more risk in order to generate those returns, you need to create an [00:11:00] environment where those assets feel like assets.
[00:11:01] David Feavearyear: You know, people have to feel like they are being treated as human beings. They're able to bring their best and authentic versions of themselves to work and all of that kind of good stuff. And I think it's,
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[00:11:13] David Feavearyear: think it's really important that organizations get that balance right and also recognize the world is changing, right?
[00:11:20] David Feavearyear: So yeah. Even when I started back in 99. The world was different. You know, you went to work, you had a PC on your desk. I didn't have a mobile phone, so when I left the office at whatever time that was work was over for the day, you know, over the weekend, nobody could contact me. I was uncontactable.
[00:11:39] David Feavearyear: Whereas, and that, that provided quite a lot of balance, right? Because you, you knew that once you got home that's fine with your own, that's shifted massively. And I think we sort of underestimate how much that shift has taken a toll on people. So nowadays, you know, your phone is flashing 24 hours a day, it's seven days a week.
[00:11:56] David Feavearyear: There's almost nowhere on the planet. And I can at testify to this, [00:12:00] having seen quite a big chunk of it. But. Your phone doesn't flash in anymore. So you know what it, what work demands of people nowadays has changed and therefore how we think about driving value and how we, we create the space for people to be that best version of themselves, I think has shifted as well.
[00:12:17] David Feavearyear: But we don't always think about that perhaps as much as we perhaps should.
[00:12:21] Coaching Leadership Shift
[00:12:21] Helen Wada: It comes back to, you know, can't see me I'm drawing on screen, but the commercial coaching approach that I talk about in human wise in the book because. We'll talk about the organizational decision making in a moment
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[00:12:34] Helen Wada: but for me, we need to shift to a place where we do not ignore the commercial aspects of a, of business.
[00:12:42] Helen Wada: 'cause as we rightly said at the beginning, if we're not delivering a return to shareholders, creating the value for those that have invested in the business or serving the customers in the right way we, frankly, don't have a business. Got it. And therefore it is classed as a hobby or an expensive investment if [00:13:00] you're not making a return.
[00:13:00] Helen Wada: Because if you're not making a return, you can't invest in people and assets and technology and all those kind of good stuff.
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[00:13:07] Helen Wada: coupled with that.
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[00:13:09] Helen Wada: need to take what I term a coaching approach to the way in which we lead and coach others. The conversations that they have, not only within organizations, but also extending to partners and customers and clients.
[00:13:26] David Feavearyear: Yeah.
[00:13:27] Helen Wada: Using the
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[00:13:28] Helen Wada: human
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[00:13:31] Helen Wada: on earlier that were effectively the same skills that I have been using in coaching for 10, 15 years. Yeah, it's just under a different name and for me it's not about the soft skills. It's making these human skills effectively, the hard they are, the hard skills because they're the harder ones to master.
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[00:13:50] Helen Wada: doing it in such a way in supporting people in such a way that they can. Work with those, but with a commercial focus, you always have to [00:14:00] have that goal insight. What are we doing? Why are we doing it? We have to prioritize because otherwise we will be burnt out, will be constantly on our phones. You have to create boundaries,
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[00:14:10] Helen Wada: the way in which
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[00:14:12] Helen Wada: conversations,
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[00:14:14] Helen Wada: needs to shift.
[00:14:15] David Feavearyear: I agree with all of that.
[00:14:16] Hard vs Soft Skills
[00:14:17] David Feavearyear: I think um, the distinction between hard and soft skills is quite useful in some ways. So, soft skills I think have as being very much the kind of the human traits, if you like that are quite hard to explain, are quite hard to rationalize at times.
[00:14:31] David Feavearyear: Things like empathy, curiosity, judgment. Leadership. And actually one of the things that's interesting about 'em is they're very hard to define, right? So if we both describe empathy, for example, I suspect we would describe it slightly differently. On the other hand, hard skills are the kind of the I think of as being sort of almost the analytic type skills, the technical skills that you need to perform a particular task.
[00:14:53] David Feavearyear: And the reason I think it's useful to keep the distinction is because in the world we're marching towards, I would argue. [00:15:00] AI and technology enables you to perform a lot of the hard technical skills in a more efficient and digital fashion. What we're marching towards isn't gonna help you to have a hard conversation with a member of your team.
[00:15:14] David Feavearyear: It's not gonna help you to build a rapport with a customer. So I think one of the things that's shifted dramatically in the last decade is we used to place a lot of emphasis in terms of finding people with the right technical skills. And I think what's shifting is you need a base level of understanding.
[00:15:31] David Feavearyear: You need to know how to use technology to make you. Efficient in the technical side of your day job. But I think the thing that's gonna differentiate individuals is gonna be those soft skills. You know, can you tell a story? Can you influence the room? Can you have a hard conversation? Can you receive and give feedback?
[00:15:48] David Feavearyear: There's a whole bunch of thi of things that historically. Curricular at school and universities is largely ignored. There are things that you do around the side of it that give you those soft skills, but I think we're sort of [00:16:00] moving into this world where they become more and more important. And actually they're the things that potentially over time differentiate organizations as well.
[00:16:07] David Feavearyear: So if you imagine technology become ubiquitous, we, and that just a hygiene factor. But what's left? What's left is what you put on top of it. It's us.
[00:16:16] Helen Wada: It really is that human layer and it's just been exacerbated. I mean, when I started the Human Advantage and I started out on my own, you
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[00:16:24] Helen Wada: the thesis there was much to what you were talking about in that the skills that I needed to create opportunities when work grow the top line were all the skills that I used.
[00:16:37] Helen Wada: When I was coaching, you know, that was the sort of aha moment when people said, why are you good at what you're doing? I'm like, I dunno why I'm good at what I did. I never wanted to be in sales. But actually when I took a step back and unpicked what the skills were, that enabled us to win contracts, support, and grow the volume of work we did with our clients and having bring new clients into the business, it [00:17:00] was those human skills.
[00:17:01] Helen Wada: It was those skills that we needed. And you. AI was only just starting, you know, that was sort of four or five years ago. And I know when you wrote your book, you know, AI was just on the chat, GPTI think it was 2018. You mentioned when you started your thinking and your doctorate wasn't really there.
[00:17:20] Helen Wada: We rolled forward to. 2025, I would say. I would say really last year.
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[00:17:27] Helen Wada: what shifted
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[00:17:29] Helen Wada: the number of people using this technology for information, for knowledge. You know, whether it's right or wrong, to challenge, to compare, and therefore the acceleration of the human skills needed to
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[00:17:45] Helen Wada: the right questions to connect the dots.
[00:17:48] Helen Wada: Get curious has become even greater because if you're not asking the right questions, you're quite frankly like to get the wrong answer.
[00:17:56] David Feavearyear: I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's interesting. So I, when I started my, [00:18:00] um. my research from my doctor, my hypothesis at the time was that technology would replace the hard technical skills, right?
[00:18:07] David Feavearyear: So I took that as a, almost a given that, you know, things like stem, mathematics, engineering, things like that they to be determined. So I wasn't saying it was gonna happen in 18 months time, but I did firmly believe that because it's repeatable. Technology would have a significant impact on that space.
[00:18:24] David Feavearyear: Now, it's not to say that the elite people that operate in that space won't still be needed. 'cause of course they will. They're the people that push boundaries and come up with new ways of thinking about the space. My view was that the average engineer or the average computer coder, for example, would be replaced by technology state to be determined.
[00:18:42] David Feavearyear: Now, at the time, I thought we were far less likely to see it encroach into the creative spaces. So things like, I know poetry or writing a book or writing a compelling piece of prose, for example. I thought it was a long way away from that. What I've seen over [00:19:00] the last sort of two, three years is actually got much, much better at that.
[00:19:03] David Feavearyear: Much quicker than I imagined it would. So now I think it's an accelerant to you getting an idea down on paper, right? So if, again, if you're an elite writer, then you're always gonna have an edge, or certainly for the foreseeable. But if you're an average writer. I would suggest that AI is gonna be a significant way of both getting things down quicker, but actually getting it down to a better quality.
[00:19:28] David Feavearyear: So there are things that it has it has started to encroach into that I hadn't expected
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[00:19:34] David Feavearyear: but there are still things that it fundamentally can't touch. So it still can't help you to understand, it can't help me to understand heaven. Right. It could. And I've done this in the past, it can write a disco file based on everything you put out in, on LinkedIn and otherwise, and it can give me a view as to how it thinks you might show up and what it thinks you might be interested
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[00:20:00] David Feavearyear: but it can't do it.
[00:20:01] David Feavearyear: And so I think. One of the things that people ought to be thinking about a lot at the moment is, what does it mean to be relevant in the world we're moving towards, what do we need to upskill, reskill, relearn, be curious about in order to be relevant in a world or, you know, technology's doing the technical stuff.
[00:20:18] David Feavearyear: It's increasingly doing some of the more creative stuff that you know, perhaps we didn't expect it to. But in that space, what is it we're gonna carve out for ourselves? What is it that's unique about, you know, human traits, human skills that is gonna make us relevant notwithstanding what happens with the tech?
[00:20:36] David Feavearyear: And I, it is a big question, but an important one to ask 'cause it's coming quite quickly.
[00:20:42] Helen Wada: Coming quite quickly.
[00:20:43] Rethinking Training
[00:20:44] Helen Wada: And it's interesting 'cause I was just writing again with all this the book coming out next week, there's a lot of PR and press around it. And I was writing another article yesterday but about how training needs to change because actually these are the sorts of skills when we're talking
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[00:20:59] Helen Wada: skills.[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] Helen Wada: These are skills that are less easy to I'm gonna train. You know, when you think about training, we often think about, you know, going into a classroom for a day and being told to do something differently. You know, you are equipping your skills. You are improving your capability. Or, you know, with technology it's
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[00:21:18] Helen Wada: we can't invest in a full day of training, so let's do it online. The skills that you and I are talking about, the skills that you used commercially when you're negotiating on both sides of the table are not skills that are necessarily easily trainable, and that's where my
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[00:21:36] Helen Wada: I think coaching has yet to be fully realized as a skill
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[00:21:42] Helen Wada: business, as something that really helps people take a step back, think through what does
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[00:21:50] Helen Wada: because there's gonna be a lot
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[00:21:51] Helen Wada: on the job.
[00:21:52] Helen Wada: There's gonna be a lot more reflection. What does it mean for me? Observing, shaping, sensing, feeling. [00:22:00]
[00:22:00] David Feavearyear: Yeah.
[00:22:00] Helen Wada: To truly get under the skin of, as you said, who is Helen, but
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[00:22:04] Helen Wada: is David what's important to you? What are your real business issues, and can I get curious and listen to that? Because no amount of technology's
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[00:22:15] Helen Wada: if I haven't
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[00:22:17] David Feavearyear: I think that's right.
[00:22:19] Trust Through Deeper Listening
[00:22:19] David Feavearyear: One of the things that, that I've found both sides of the table is it takes a long term time to earn trust and to build rapport. Right? And I think it's actually really important because. We could have conversation and I could ask you a whole bunch of questions and that would enable me to superficially understand what might be top of mind for you in terms of your
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[00:22:43] David Feavearyear: terms of your business, what you're trying to achieve, all that kind of good stuff.
[00:22:46] David Feavearyear: But to go the next level deeper or the next level deeper than that, to understand what it is that you are excited about. You know, what is it that you are nervous about? What is it that, you know, you wake up at two o'clock in the morning retting [00:23:00] about as it were, you know, what are the things that are really at that level below the superficial?
[00:23:04] David Feavearyear: Human beings are really good at getting to that, you know, over coffee. And actually it's those things where you get to understand someone at a deeper level. And once you understand someone at a deeper level, you can really start to, you can actually add more value to them as a human being but also you can understand where they're coming from.
[00:23:20]
[00:23:20] David Feavearyear: And I think one of the things that I think we, we learned through COVID was. If you had a team of a hundred people, for example, getting 'em all on a uh, a town hall or, or having a, a kudos quiz or something, was probably not gonna be sufficient at an engagement level because everybody was having their own individual experience of what it meant to go through COVID.
[00:23:40] David Feavearyear: So if you were somebody that had a great home life, no children, you weren't having to homeschool, then that was one experience. But if you were somebody that was going through. A divorce, you know, all else being equal, you would've passed away during that time, for example. Or, you know, you lived in a one, a small, one bedroom [00:24:00] flat.
[00:24:00] David Feavearyear: You used to love going to the office 'cause you loved the space. And all of a sudden you're sat there and everything that you own is in this uh, is in this tiny environment and now stuck in everyone was having a different experience. And the only way. That we found in unpacking that was to divide and conquer, right?
[00:24:17] David Feavearyear: So everybody became responsible for reaching out to somebody else. And for building those kind of more organic connections, if you like, between members of the team so you could really understand what people were going through, you could understand if they were struggling. You used to see it and feel it in the office, right?
[00:24:33] David Feavearyear: When you're in an office. People can't hide how they're feeling. You know, if they're down, you know, if they're excited. But when you're working like this, it's actually easy to get on a call for 20 minutes, but then everything's fine. And again, sit in the corner and cry for 40 minutes. They're all the things that make us human.
[00:24:48] David Feavearyear: That's what leading human teams. It's, and I think, again, I like the distinction between organic and inorganic. You know, machines are inorganic, they always will be. Yeah. Humans are [00:25:00] organic. You know, you use words like feel, and touch, et cetera. You know, that's what we're about. You know, we're sentient.
[00:25:05] David Feavearyear: Therefore, I think to be a human leader, you have to understand all of that. And there's no playbook to your point. You can't sit in a classroom and learn it. It's based on experiences, it's based on judgment. It's based on everything that's brought you to where you are today. And that's the fascinating thing about human beings, you know, work is work, but actually the thing that's really interesting about against work is people.
[00:25:27] Helen Wada: there's so much in there, David.
[00:25:28] Hybrid Work Trust Building
[00:25:29] Helen Wada: And just picking up on a couple of things, I think the point around COVID is absolutely spot on. And I think extending that to where we are now today, and when we are talking about commercial relationships, you know, when I'm working with groups, what it also means is we have to work even harder.
[00:25:46] Helen Wada: To build that trust, build that connection. You think of, you know, you think of the time that we met, what, 10 years ago?
[00:25:51] David Feavearyear: Yeah.
[00:25:51] Helen Wada: We'd have a meeting, we'd have an agenda, we'd focus on, you know. Conversation that we need to cover. But then you have a sidestep conversation about [00:26:00] what's interesting to you or what, where are you going?
[00:26:03] Helen Wada: Or you are getting to know the human beings on the side. And you have to make much more of an effort in this hybrid working world to make those connections and build that trust. Because trust is at the heart of these human conversations, at the heart of commercial conversations. But you need to do it in a way that you effectively put, the way that I look at it is you put your agenda on the back burner.
[00:26:31] Helen Wada: Certainly when I'm talking to potential customers. Because it becomes all about you. 'cause for you to trust me, you have to know that I've got your best interests at heart. And this is again, where I think that the sales piece and the coaching skills really have to start to knit together because this is no longer about what I've got that you might need.
[00:26:53] David Feavearyear: Yeah.
[00:26:53] Helen Wada: It's about fundamentally taking a different approach to saying. Hello, David, who are you? What's going [00:27:00] on for you? What's going on for your business? Before I can even begin to work out, whether I or any of
[00:27:05] [Mic bleed]
[00:27:06] Helen Wada: or partners can create something that might be of value to you to serve you, your team and your business.
[00:27:14] Long Term Relationship Selling
[00:27:14] David Feavearyear: I I think that's right, and I think there's a piece here about horizon, right? Because mm-hmm. I think the best relationships I've had in business have been built over 15, 20 years. So I think really good salespeople understand that you may not be relevant in the moment, but that doesn't mean you won't be relevant ever.
[00:27:33] David Feavearyear: And I think really good salespeople and actually just. Really good leaders in general invest for the long term, right? So just because you know you're not relevant to that person in that moment doesn't mean you don't come back in three months, six months, nine months. Doesn't mean you don't keep sending them stuff that you think might be of interest to them, not with any particular agenda.
[00:27:51] David Feavearyear: Not 'cause to your point you're trying to sell 'em this particular widget, but just because. You are making it clear that you are investing in them as a human being, right? If they move [00:28:00] company, you don't suddenly ditch 'em, you follow 'em. You still turn up, you still show up. You still have those discussions.
[00:28:05] David Feavearyear: And then invariably the mood music changes at some point. And, you know, hopefully through those relationships. At some point there's a mutual exchange of value, but I think the best relationships are where you accept that there may not be something coming back the other way. Right? So you're doing something just because you can and because you think it's helpful, not because you've got a particular agenda.
[00:28:28] David Feavearyear: And I think that's the way real relationships work right outside of work. And I don't think it's that different in the commercial environment. I think anybody. Anybody that rocks up trying to sell something in a window, I think is not doomed to fail, but it's gonna be harder. It's gonna be a much more superficial relationship than you will have if you just start building a relationship over time without a specific outcome in mind.
[00:28:53] David Feavearyear: And I think too many people overlook that when they're thinking about how they build an account, [00:29:00] plans or influence maps, et cetera.
[00:29:03]
[00:29:03] Helen Wada: You're kind of hitting the nail on the head here, and I'm gonna bring you back to the conversation where we started right at the beginning of this podcast because as you said, as we both agreed, business is driven by shareholders, by those [Mic bleed] a financial return.
[00:29:20] Helen Wada: And the trouble is. That what we [Mic bleed] on the one hand, we have exactly what you've been talking about, the real, the relationships where you get to really work in partnership with people for the long term are created by investing time, by understanding, by keeping going over time.
[00:29:37] [Mic bleed]
[00:29:39] Helen Wada: term view is driven by the financial markets
[00:29:42] [Mic bleed]
[00:29:43] Helen Wada: are constantly looking for the next month, for next quarter, the six months, the annual return.
[00:29:48] Helen Wada: And if you can't deliver at that point. Then what are you doing?
[00:29:53] David Feavearyear: Yeah.
[00:29:53] Helen Wada: And so for me, I think we need to start flipping the dial. And this is what I talk about in [00:30:00] human wise that says
[00:30:01] [Mic bleed]
[00:30:01] Helen Wada: need to keep that commercial focus. Who are the people that we keep focused on? What is the priority? But you need to do it with a coaching approach.
[00:30:09] Helen Wada: We can't have one or the other. We need to start to blend the two. And I'm really interested in you taking a step back to think about your last 20, 25 years experience. What would you offer to listeners that are, listen to this conversation, say, yes, I get it, but I'm being asked for another a million here or another half a million on this account.
[00:30:32] Strategy Back Planning
[00:30:32] David Feavearyear: It's a big question, right? I mean, it's almost the million dollar question is how do you balance short term priorities with, you know, building long term sustainable value? Because I mean, fundamentally that's what we're talking about, I think. Yeah. And I think. The honest answer is you somehow have to find a way of doing both, right?
[00:30:51] David Feavearyear: So I mean, most plans are orientated around, these are the quick wins, these are the short term priorities, this is what we're investing for the midterm. [00:31:00] And I think good plans then suggest this is what we're doing for the long term. And I think your planning should always be against those horizons because if you just focus on short term.
[00:31:12] David Feavearyear: It's very easy to be Pennywise and foolish. It's very easy to mortgage the future. You make decisions today that are very difficult to unwind. And I think you always have to work from that strategy back, right? So no strategy is ever built around what you're gonna do in the next six months or even 12 months, right?
[00:31:27] David Feavearyear: All strategy is mid to long term, right? This is what we're gonna do. This is why we're gonna win. This is why we're why we were placed. This is how we're gonna execute. Day to day is easy to forget. That you are working strategy back and just to focus on the immediacy around you. But I think you have to create the space to do, and you use the word step back.
[00:31:50] David Feavearyear: I think people do, and that's my theme. Sometimes you take a step back, have a cup of coffee, wrap wet tail around your head, and then think about how we're gonna get [00:32:00] this balance right. But most organizations, I think particularly the ones that have large shareholder bases. It's not just about the next nine months.
[00:32:11] David Feavearyear: You know, most shareholders are in it for the long haul. And therefore getting that balance right is not easy, but you have to start with strategy back. When you find yourself firefighting, 'cause you're just going from the next tactical thing to the next tactical thing, my view is you are hide into nothing.
[00:32:29] David Feavearyear: You'll burn out. And fundamentally you won't achieve that kind of sustainable growth that you could if you just remember that there's a balance to be struck here.
[00:32:39] Using AI To Create Space
[00:32:39] David Feavearyear: And if anything, I'd say this is where the tech helps, right? Because if you can get into a mindset that says, for a big chunk of my work, it's just gonna be good enough.
[00:32:51] David Feavearyear: So if I'm polishing a deck for seven hours, is it sufficient? And I'm just gonna tell a really great [00:33:00] story about it. Move on. Find ways of driving efficiency through the day job. I mean, I know people. You know, kind of blow up AI and suggest it's a panacea to all our problems that it is not. But equally you can do some pretty good stuff.
[00:33:16] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:33:16] David Feavearyear: But if you use it effectively, it will create space in your diary and, you know, and then it's how do you use that space to do what we were just talking about, investing in a mid to long-term relationship. You know, what is it? It's. Having a coffee virtually, potentially once a month, once a quarter.
[00:33:31] David Feavearyear: It's sending somebody a couple of articles here and there that you think might be upheld. And you can only do that if you create your space in your diary. And you can only do that if you take a step
[00:33:41] [Mic bleed]
[00:33:42] Helen Wada: And that again, brings me back. I'm gonna come back into the human wise and the human approach that I talk about in the
[00:33:49] [Mic bleed]
[00:33:50] Helen Wada: because for me, the skills of leadership development and commerciality and sales
[00:33:56] [Mic bleed] [Mic bleed]
[00:33:57] Helen Wada: so intertwined
[00:33:58] [Mic bleed]
[00:33:59] Helen Wada: you hit the nail on the [00:34:00] head there.
[00:34:00] Helen Wada: We cannot create the space to have the conversations that are really important unless we are leading better and delegating more. Because unless you create the space. Within your own calendar, your own diary. You just end up burning out with a long list of things to do that you never get to. And so
[00:34:18] [Mic bleed]
[00:34:19] Helen Wada: we shift forward, as AI begins to help us with efficiencies, we stop doing things that really we shouldn't be doing.
[00:34:26] Helen Wada: I mean, we shouldn't be polishing a deck for seven hours, right? It's like, done is good enough. Do we even
[00:34:30] [Mic bleed]
[00:34:31] Helen Wada: 15 pages a will two do, because most people these days want a conversation. We need to start to think about what do we stop doing? What do we do differently? How do we have technology enable some of the things?
[00:34:42] Helen Wada: And then how do we delegate better so that we can then take a step back? And bring in our
[00:34:49] [Mic bleed]
[00:34:49] Helen Wada: skills to have the conversations that matter, to get curious, to create insight. And then I would add one thing further to that is to keep the resilience [00:35:00] going
[00:35:00] [Mic bleed]
[00:35:00] Helen Wada: an uncertain and difficult environment that we are all gonna be operating in for the next 10, 15 years to come.
[00:35:06] Resilience And Relevance
[00:35:06] David Feavearyear: It is, and I think, that resilience in the face of uncertainty as it were. I think it's so much easier to be excited about the future if you can understand how you are relevant to it as opposed to reacting to it. And again, I think you know, I'd always advocate people take a bit of a step back, think.
[00:35:26] David Feavearyear: Where's the world shifting? And what can you do to be relevant in that world? And to be relevant? How do you upskill and reskill? So what are the things you need to hone and improve on? And really double down on that. And then, so the discussion we were just having, what's less important, right?
[00:35:41] David Feavearyear: Is that perfectly polished deck? Gonna be the differentiator or is you spending longer thinking about how you're gonna tell the story to your point about two slides versus 15. The thing that's hard about two slides is it takes more thought, right? It to get something down con concisely is much [00:36:00] harder than just brain dumping everything onto 15 slides.
[00:36:04] David Feavearyear: But without doubt, the two slides lands better. It has more impact. You're saying more with less, you know, they are, they're human skills. And AI can help with some of that. But there's an onus on the individual and as us, as leaders to do that step back to give ourselves the thinking space because again, thinking's human mean it, it's all obvious.
[00:36:24] David Feavearyear: It. I think when you're so caught up in busy commercial roles, you just forget some of this stuff
[00:36:32] Helen Wada: and we need to, we need it to bring it back into the everyday we need to make it valuable, and that's part of the message around being more human at work is we need to make creating space valuable, creating time to think valuable, and giving people the skills, the coaching skills, the human skills.
[00:36:53] Helen Wada: To create those conversations that matter. They'll be tough conversations. But actually when you get to [00:37:00] it, and when you build the right relationships, they also can be fun and enjoyable. Which going back to what we were talking about is, you know, if this isn't fun and going somewhere, then why are we
[00:37:09] [Mic bleed]
[00:37:10] David Feavearyear: Yeah I think that's right. It's, they always, I mean, I can't remember who said it or whoever I heard it, but I remember somebody saying once, you know, people learn the most when they're having the most fun. And it's for the large part, it's true. It is why children learn so rapidly because a lot of their learning is through fun.
[00:37:27] David Feavearyear: And actually, I mean. I probably learned most about AI's limitations, what it can do, what it can't do by just messing about with it, by just playing with it. Because it's when you think of a wacky idea and you sort of think, I wonder if it can do this. And you find that either it can or it can't, but it surprises you.
[00:37:46] David Feavearyear: Yeah. And then if you if you have the curiosity. One of the things I quite like doing is I'll ask you something at a point in time and then I'll see if it can do it. And if it can't do it, I'll see if it can do it in [00:38:00] 12 months time. And what I'm finding is that time lapse between the two things is really enlightening.
[00:38:07] David Feavearyear: So stuff that AI couldn't do 12 months ago, it can absolutely do now. So that helps you to think about, well, okay, if it's made that step change in 12 months, where's it gonna gain in the next 12
[00:38:19] [Mic bleed]
[00:38:20] David Feavearyear: And that helps you think about what makes you relevant in that world when you get to that point.
[00:38:24] David Feavearyear: And that helps you think about what you upskill and reskill. And then to your point, it's how you do that. Is it coaching? Is it learning? Is it on the job? I mean, it starts with knowing what you want to learn.
[00:38:34] [Mic bleed]
[00:38:35] David Feavearyear: then it's thinking about how you do that.
[00:38:36] [Mic bleed] it starts with a why doesn't it? And what we're here for.
[00:38:39]
[00:38:39] Helen Wada: I'm conscious of time. We could keep this conversation going all morning. I'm sure
[00:38:44] [Mic bleed]
[00:38:44] Helen Wada: you've already just asked the listeners a couple of questions to think about in terms of what they don't do. But I always ask at the end
[00:38:51] [Mic bleed]
[00:38:52] Helen Wada: these conversations, what's your one top tip? And what's the one question that you would offer listeners to think about as they [00:39:00] reflect on the conversation?
[00:39:01] David Feavearyear: This will sound more trite now than it did a few years ago. But my top tip would be to find ways to be curious and to give yourself the space to be so. And I don't just mean curious in terms of tech. I mean, just curious generally. Mm-hmm. If you can get into a mindset where you're constantly thinking about either why things are the way they are, or to wonder what they could be like next.
[00:39:32] David Feavearyear: To be curious about why someone in the team is turning up in a certain way, why a particular customer, you know, comes across in a certain way, meetings or has a certain attitude. The curiosity leads to quite a lot of action, typically in my experience. So, you know, if you can get into a mindset where you're constantly just questioning and being curious and then having the drive to try and get the answers.
[00:39:57] David Feavearyear: I think that's probably my biggest tip because [00:40:00] it, I would argue is that the essence of all learning is just you being curious in the first place about something. Mm-hmm. And then going and finding out,
[00:40:07] [Mic bleed]
[00:40:09] David Feavearyear: then there was a second parts of the question, Helen, which I,
[00:40:12] Helen Wada: well, what's the question?
[00:40:14] Helen Wada: So being curious starts with questions, right? So, what's the
[00:40:17] [Mic bleed]
[00:40:18] Helen Wada: you get listeners to think about?
[00:40:20] David Feavearyear: I think for businesses and individuals it. In the business context is thinking about that relevance. So how are we, how am I gonna be relevant in the world we're moving towards? And I think it's important to say in the world we're moving towards, so not, how am I relevant today? Not how am I being relevant in the past, but how am I gonna be relevant in where we're headed?
[00:40:44] David Feavearyear: If you overlay that with the curiosity point, I think those are the two things that you need. To be confident facing into the future. Because if you if you started asking questions, you understand what it is likely to be that makes you relevant in that future, you can [00:41:00] start to build a plan to get there.
[00:41:01] David Feavearyear: And then I think you're quite a long way forward on quite a lot of people.
[00:41:06] Helen Wada: Brilliant. Lots and lots to think about. David, it's been an absolute [Mic bleed] to have you on the show. [Mic bleed]
[00:41:12] Helen Wada: If people have
[00:41:12] [Mic bleed]
[00:41:14] Helen Wada: find you? Where's best?
[00:41:16] David Feavearyear: Best place now is probably LinkedIn. So yeah, if anyone's curious about anything we've talked about, reach out.
[00:41:22] David Feavearyear: If you're curious about anything we're doing at Bloom, then yeah, reach out either through the Bloom website or through LinkedIn. Yeah, always happy to have a conversation.
[00:41:31] [Mic bleed]
[00:41:33] Helen Wada: Thank you ever so much, David, and have a great rest of your day.
[00:41:36] David Feavearyear: You too. Thank you.
[00:41:37] Take.