Ep56: Human-Centred Sales - Rethinking Commercial Growth Through Psychometrics with Jim Bloomfield
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What if the problem with sales is not the activity itself, but the story we tell ourselves about it? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by Jim Bloomfield, founder of Blue Jam and psychometrics specialist with over 20 years’ experience developing top talent across leadership and sales.
Together, they unpack why so many professionals feel uncomfortable with selling, and how reframing sales as value creation, not self-promotion, transforms both confidence and results. Drawing on behavioural science, psychometrics, and real-world commercial experience, Jim explains why high-performing salespeople are not the most money-driven, but the most client-focused. This conversation challenges the myths around sales and shows how leadership and sales share the same human DNA.
If you work in professional services, lead a commercial team, or are building your own business, this episode will help you sell in a way that feels authentic and aligned to who you are.
Topics Discussed
Why sales feels “icky” and where that mindset comes from
The psychology behind high-performing salespeople
Authenticity and trust in commercial conversations
How psychometrics reveal sales strengths and blind spots
Why leadership and sales skills are more aligned than we think
Building intentional, consistent business development habits
How AI changes sales, but does not remove the human interface
Turning technical experts into confident business developers
Timestamps:
00:00 – 02:00 | Introduction: Meet Jim Bloomfield and the human side of sales
02:01 – 05:30 | What does being human at work mean in sales?
05:31 – 09:30 | Why selling feels uncomfortable and the “used car salesman” stereotype
09:31 – 14:00 | Value creation vs. target chasing: what high performers do differently
14:01 – 18:00 | Insight, trust and navigating complex buying groups
18:01 – 22:00 | Network building, stakeholder mapping and intentional relationships
22:01 – 25:30 | Coaching vs training: unlocking motivation in sales
25:31 – 29:30 | Authenticity, AI and the future of human-centred selling
29:31 – 33:00 | Intentional business development for experts and entrepreneurs
33:01 – 36:00 | Psychometrics in sales: behaviours, mindset and performance
36:01 – 40:00 | Leadership and sales: the shared human skillset
40:01 – 42:00 | Final reflections: being intentional and leveraging your strengths
About Jim Bloomfield:
Follow @jfbloomfield on Linkedin
Jim has 20 years’ experience in supporting clients to identify and develop their top talent across sales and leadership roles. He has worked on projects globally across Europe, Middle East, North America and Australasia for a diverse range of blue-chip clients including HSBC, KPMG, CMS, Legal & General, British Airways & Toyota. Having begun his career in sales with a leading psychometric test publisher, Jim has a passion for psychometrics and is trained in tools such as OPQ, Wave, MBTI, Hogan, Lumina Spark and many more. In addition, he has developed Acuity a questionnaire designed to measure sales behaviours. He is an Associate Member of the Association of Business Psychologists (ABP) and is registered as a Test User: Occupational Ability & Personality with the British Psychological Society (BPS).
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Ep. 56 - Human-Centred Sales: Rethinking Commercial Growth Through Psychometrics with Jim Bloomfield
[00:00:00] Introduction and Greetings[00:00:00] Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:29] Helen Wada: This is take two.
[00:00:30] Meet Jim Bloomfield
[00:00:30] Helen Wada: So Welcome to another episode of Human Wise.
[00:00:35] Helen Wada: I'm absolutely delighted to have Jim Bloomfield here with me this morning. Jim has 20 years experience supporting clients to identify and develop their top talent across leadership and sales roles. He worked on projects globally across Europe, middle East, north America, and no Australasia, and with a range of blue.
[00:00:55] Helen Wada: Clients including H-S-B-C-C-M-S, legal and General [00:01:00] British Airways and Toyota to name just a few. Having begun his career in sales with a leading psychometric test publisher, Jim is absolutely passionate about psychometrics and the way that people learn. Jim. I think is, you know, what we've talked about is, you know, this is not just about a skillset, it's about a mindset.
[00:01:20] Helen Wada: And I know we're gonna talk about that a little bit later on. But Jim now operates Blue Jam, a consulting firm designed to support individuals and organizations really understand the traits of successful selling better and what it really means to. Sell your Way, Jim. So it's all about the human in sales, which is very closely aligned to what I do.
[00:01:41] Helen Wada: So welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on the show.
[00:01:45] Jim's Background and Personal Interests
[00:01:45] Helen Wada: Tell us a little bit more about who you are. I've given sort of the professional CCB cv, but we're talking about being human. Who's Jim?
[00:01:52] Jim's Personal Interests
[00:01:52] Jim Bloomfield: Well, first of all, thanks very much for having me on the show, Helen. It's great to be here and I know that you know, we've had numerous conversations in the [00:02:00] past on this topic, so it's nice to come and, talk, talk more about it. Who am I? So, on the human side my, my sort of key passions I suppose are music, really enjoy music, particular genre of indie music.
[00:02:12] Jim Bloomfield: I, I would say between 1995 and 2005. But I do go beyond those boundaries sometimes as well.
[00:02:19] Helen Wada: I was this, I was listening. I talked to, to, to you before you came on about the sitting on the A three last night and stationary TRA traffic, and it was the nineties at nine and that was like, oh, that's my hero. I can do that.
[00:02:30] Jim Bloomfield: Fantastic. Yeah that's me too. The other things I'm, I really enjoy are sport. I play a lot of football, play a lot of squash. I like the competitive side of things, so I don't, I'm not someone who can go and you know, do a couple of hours in the gym. I just get bored. So I need that capacity element.
[00:02:46] Jim Bloomfield: And also travel. Really enjoy travel. I've always been curious about the world. I've been fortunate that I've traveled a lot in the work that I've done, which has taken me to some places that I might not have chosen to do. But I, I think probably un underpinning all of that it's about [00:03:00] experiences with people that you like, people that you love really.
[00:03:03] Jim Bloomfield: So, you know, all of those things are fairly meaningless if you don't share them with others.
[00:03:08] Helen Wada: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, it comes back to. What does meaning mean for us in business? Because clearly we all working, we all work hard. We all are working in fields lucky enough for it that we're passionate about. But people is at the heart of it and so.
[00:03:23] The Human Element in Sales[00:03:23] The Human Element in Sales
[00:03:23] Helen Wada: I always start these conversations with a question is, what does being human at work mean to you?
[00:03:29] Helen Wada: And maybe with a spec specific slant on that, that what does being human at work mean to you when you are referencing sales and what it means to grow our business? Because growth is at the top of everybody's lips right now.
[00:03:42] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, absolutely. I think Yeah, absolutely. I think for me it's about being authentic. So in sales there's a lot of focus on. You know, certain processes or methodologies. Every, you know, organization has a sales methodology. But I think if you, if they're too kind [00:04:00] of rigorously imposed, then you do sort of lose that human element.
[00:04:04] Jim Bloomfield: And I think for a salesperson. You know, you need to be authentic. People need to believe in you. Your clients need to believe in you and you know, be able to feel that they can trust you. And I think you can only achieve that by being authentic to yourself. So for me it's about helping people to understand how they can, you know, whilst there might be a process or methodology they need to adhere to it's about how they can do that authentically.
[00:04:27] Challenges and Mindset in Sales
[00:04:27] Helen Wada: So Jim, you make a great point now about being authentic and being true to yourself to create trusted relationships.
[00:04:35] Helen Wada: But actually there's still something particularly here. You know, you and I sat in the uk. I think if you were to look at the US it may well be different. Sales is considered to be sort of a profession than something else you do on the side. But people that I'm talking to. Every day. And like, I'm still getting, but I don't like selling.
[00:04:55] Helen Wada: Sales is icky, sales is not for me. Where do you think that comes from? [00:05:00] From a psychological perspective?
[00:05:02] Jim Bloomfield: Great question.
[00:05:03] Challenges and Mindset in Sales[00:05:03] Psychological Perspectives on Sales
[00:05:03] Jim Bloomfield: Well, it's interesting, I dunno if you've read Daniel Pink's book to sell his human in that he does a lot of research around the, well, this question really, and I think one of the really interesting things in, in, in his research is he actually undertook a survey of individuals to find out how they feel about.
[00:05:22] Jim Bloomfield: Sales and selling. And what he found was that a lot of that, a lot of the way that people feel about selling comes down to a natural sort of underlying discomfort but also a distaste of sales. And it's really deep rooted. Because one of the things that he then followed up with was to ask people what's what image sort of springs to mind when they think of sales and really consistent what was coming.
[00:05:45] Jim Bloomfield: Across was that image of a car salesman, a used car salesman, and all the inferences that perhaps go with that, which may be unfair, but you know, the idea of, you know, someone in a shiny suit. Trying to sell you something that, you know, probably has [00:06:00] some problems underneath the hoods that you're not gonna be aware of as you drive off the forecourt.
[00:06:04] Jim Bloomfield: So I think there's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of sort of cultural discomfort, as I say with the idea of selling and people, perceiving that others will see them as, you know, sort of underhand in some way if they admit to being a salesperson. And I think a lot of people, myself included, I've worked in sales.
[00:06:21] Jim Bloomfield: You know, when I first started I felt really uncomfortable with selling for a number of reasons. I probably know better now what those reasons are based on the work that I do. But, and some of those things I can change some of those things. I just have to, you know, perhaps live with and manage better.
[00:06:37] Jim Bloomfield: I can't change them.
[00:06:38] Helen Wada: And it is interesting that you know, you've been a salesman. You talk about, you know, being out on the front line when you're running a business you are effectively selling.
[00:06:45] Shifting Mindsets and Adding Value
[00:06:45] Helen Wada: What's helped you to shift your mindset around it?
[00:06:50] Jim Bloomfield: So a few things.
[00:06:52] Shifting Sales Mindset
[00:06:56] Jim Bloomfield: One, my sales career was straight out of university and I went into it for the wrong reasons. So, those reasons were I wanted to earn as much [00:07:00] money as possible and I saw friends who had good company cars and a lot of disposable income, and I thought, yep, okay.
[00:07:05] Jim Bloomfield: That's the route for me. So I wasn't. I wasn't in it for the right reasons. I was in it for selfish reasons, I think. Then I joined an organization in a sector that I knew nothing about. So I had no, no knowledge or credibility. I mean, albeit I got trained in in, you know, their products and services.
[00:07:21] Jim Bloomfield: But you know, then going and talking to clients who. I'd worked in that field for 15, 20, 25 years. I was very much coming from a position of, you know, being the one in the room without the knowledge or the insight to add any value to those conversations. And I felt that, and it, and again, kind of led to that sense of feeling, uncomfortable and you know, that then maybe created some behaviors where I was really just an order taker as opposed to someone who, as I say, was adding any value or you know, being a trusted advisor to those clients.
[00:07:53] Helen Wada: and it's interesting just picking up on a couple of things there. You know, number one you talked about being selfish. And I [00:08:00] think sales is often associated with sort of selfishness of it's all about me. And that's why people feel uncomfortable about it because actually we are trained, we want to be, you know, citizens adding value to others.
[00:08:15] Helen Wada: And if you put that sales label on it, it turns it all on you. Whereas actually what we've come back to and what you were talking about there, right at the end was. How can I create value for others? How can I serve others? And I think for me, there is a mindset shift that sales, I talk about reframing, but we need to reframe sales from something that's all about me.
[00:08:40] Helen Wada: And it is historic, right? You came out of university or sales is thing where I win. For me, it's all financially driven. It's what I want in my pocket but actually. The best people selling at creating value for others is by putting a different mindset on it and about [00:09:00] saying, how can I help?
[00:09:01] Helen Wada: How can I serve, and how can I add value?
[00:09:06] Jim Bloomfield: Yes. Yeah. And we've profiled salespeople in lots of different sectors, and actually when you sit down and talk to them, and particularly high performers, we, you know, I perhaps thought that the highest best performing salespeople would be the most. Money motivated, but we found the opposite.
[00:09:24] Jim Bloomfield: And that's quite consistent across multiple sectors. Actually, the best salespeople are not worried about their ability to hit target or make commission. They're really focused on solving client problems. And they know that if they do that and they do that well, the clients will buy from them. They'll hit their target, they'll get their commission.
[00:09:42] Jim Bloomfield: That's a byproduct. Whereas actually. The poorer performers are much more focused on how do I get to this number every month or every quarter, and then that starts to drive the wrong behaviors.
[00:09:53] Helen Wada: Isn't that interesting? Because what we see of time and time again is this. Commercial [00:10:00] focus, right? We've gotta hit target. We are under budget. We need to do more. And that's the consistent theme. You know, again, hearing it all over, even first month in January, right? We need to do more. How close are we to our targets? But what I'm hearing you saying is actually from the statistics and the profiles for those high performing individuals is actually, you need to be mindful of those targets, but in a way you need to let them go. Flip your mindset towards how can I help? What is it that the customer needs at playing the two together?
[00:10:36] Helen Wada: And that really links, I mean, we've talked about the commercial coaching approach that we take with work we do, but on the one hand, you know, why you, what do you do? What is your commercial focus? We have to prioritize. But on the other hand, it. It's taking a coaching approach, which is putting your customer at heart of your conversations and not thinking about what you individually curious about what it is they need.
[00:10:59] Jim Bloomfield: [00:11:00] Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's nothing going to damage your credibility more than trying to get them to sign on the dotted line before they're the end of the month when you know that's not their driver. That's your driver.
[00:11:12] Helen Wada: And what else? Tell us what else, from a psychology standpoint, what else does psychology tell us about sales and the skills that, competencies that people need.
[00:11:22] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. So what we found is that there's a big piece around. An individual's kind of desire to be in that role. Their personal drive, if you like, to get out there, be in front of clients to have strong belief in their proposition and what they're selling and how that might add value for clients to be resilient when things are maybe not going so well.
[00:11:48] Jim Bloomfield: To be consistent in terms of how they the activity they undertake. And to be equally to sort of be reflective and to want to learn and improve [00:12:00] as well as things like, you know, being really clear about goals and activities and how they help an individual to, to get to. You know, the outcome that they're trying to achieve.
[00:12:11] Jim Bloomfield: So there's a lot in there about will, before you even get to the skills, to the behaviors, it's about an individual's drive to show up to be consistent and to be really clear about what it is they need to do in order to be successful. And what we found is that, you know, when you think about sales training address addresses a lot of the skill elements.
[00:12:31] Jim Bloomfield: But you need to have the right people in the room in the first place. And companies don't always get that right.
[00:12:36] Helen Wada: And that again got, it links back to the H of the human right.
[00:12:39] Helen Wada: It's how you show up and it's that reminding yourself of, you know, why you, and why, what is the value that you bring? Because the market is increasingly competitive. Market is less sticky. Of course. Accept, as you know, we have so many different options.
[00:12:57] Helen Wada: The options are global. There's different [00:13:00] price points. So why you ultimately, but my observation is that people don't spend enough time really thinking why you and what's your value for you? And then you get to a point, and you mentioned earlier, if people aren't very comfortable with being uncomfortable, they like to know everything. But in the complex world that we're in, we caught them, everything.
[00:13:25] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, and if you think about it, if you don't, if you don't. Believe in yourself and the value that you can add. You don't have that motivation. You're not clear about why you're in the room. Then when you do step into the room and you're in front of a client, you know that's not gonna come across particularly well.
[00:13:41] Jim Bloomfield: You know, and if you're in a competitive situation and you are, and you know, someone else is doing that and is showing how they can add value and they are confident and they are positioning themselves as this trusted advisor, then actually. When it all comes down to it, we know that people buy from people.
[00:13:57] Jim Bloomfield: So if you've got two firms in the room and one [00:14:00] person's demonstrating that then that's where the client's gonna go.
[00:14:03] Helen Wada: You, you mentioned about trust advisor. You know, there's been long been talk about, you know, build the relationships, establish the relationships, the market's competitive, right? And so we are seeing relationships turn over. More frequently because of commercial pressures requests to do things differently.
[00:14:22] Helen Wada: What does that mean for the skills and the mindset of people out there on the front line?
[00:14:29] Leveraging Networks and Insights
[00:14:29] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, what we found is that what really. Sets the high performers apart from others perhaps, is that they really understand the market, the sector that they operate in, and they're able to, to, you know, bring insight and value to clients. If clients are looking for, you know, they're looking for a change, they're looking for something different then those individuals are able to, Support that decision making process. So they're sharing [00:15:00] what they know of the market and giving. The client's new perspectives. I mean, there's a lot of stats and data around saying that buyers have access to lots more information than they have Easter. And I'm and that's absolutely true.
[00:15:14] Jim Bloomfield: But are they able to make sense of that information? That I think is less clear. And I think, you know, in the age of ai, you know, that's maybe gonna be even more problematic.
[00:15:24] Helen Wada: And you talk about making sense of information because there's something that I. People that I work with is, you know, our traditional ways of creating insight, bringing information is that, you know, understanding the market, understanding what's going on actually sometimes from other sectors. You know, I've had some great conversations here.
[00:15:44] Helen Wada: It's like, well, what is relevant from other sectors that could be applicable to the conversations that you are having? A reference one back from Hamish Taylor where they were looking at queuing British Airways and actually they turned to Disney because it's kind completely different. Who's best in the world at doing [00:16:00] this?
[00:16:00] Helen Wada: There's two things there. It's one about understanding your customer's customer, getting curious, but also how do we make sense of things? We need time to think. We need to have a conversation. And so for me, one of the skills of help of salespeople helping our customers is to create insight through conversation. So it is not just that I'm bringing you this, it's about how can we collectively think about this issue. 'cause quite frankly, most of the issues popping up in the world today, people don't necessarily know the answers, but you have to be the one that's there helping them to make sense of something, to have an opportunity to help solve that and then work collaboratively.
[00:16:44] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. And I think in addition to that, it's also, you know, who else do we need to speak to in the buying organization to help this decision making process? 'cause it's rarely these days down to one individual to make that decision. So, you know, I'm sure you're the [00:17:00] same, but I'll be in rooms with, you know.
[00:17:02] Jim Bloomfield: 5, 6, 7, 8 decision makers. They all represent different parts of the organization. They've all got their own kind of needs and agendas within that as well. So the way that you present that value to each of those stakeholders could be different. And it's about how you actually align them so that they can make a decision.
[00:17:20] Jim Bloomfield: Because the easiest course of action when there's that many decision makers in the room is no action.
[00:17:26] Helen Wada: Yeah. And then you end up with a status quo and nobody moves forward. thinking back to, you know, the psychometrics that you do with the work at and acuity and everything, what are they, you know, again, what are the traits of those high performers in understanding the landscape and who they are and how they show up?
[00:17:47] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, so, so one of the key differentiators is around that, that sort of conscious. Network building. So a lot of salespeople are good at doing that externally. [00:18:00] And they will build connections. I think the best ones are really intentional and really clear about which connections they're building, which relationships they're investing in, why they're doing that, what value that adds.
[00:18:11] Jim Bloomfield: So you might have different relationships that are driving. Different benefits for you as a salesperson, not necessarily an opportunity, but maybe those individuals, certain individuals are good sources of insight for you, but they, you know, they might, they may never buy from you, but actually they're valuable relationships to have anyway.
[00:18:30] Jim Bloomfield: Some may be. Influencing a decision maker. So you may want to think about the frequency of your relationship with those individuals if they're sitting, you know, adjacent to the decision maker to help you understand what that decision maker is thinking, for example. But the other thing we found is that, um, high performers are really good at leveraging their internal networks.
[00:18:54] Jim Bloomfield: And I often have conversations with individuals to say. To what extent do you treat your [00:19:00] internal network as if it was a customer or a client relationship? And that can be really revealing. 'cause often people have not really thought about the internal network in the same way and all the value that there is already there that they could be utilizing.
[00:19:15] Helen Wada: And it goes back to that learning piece, doesn't it? It is learning outside of your zone, your area. How do you connect and collaborate? But also how do you prioritize? 'cause there are only a certain number of hours in the day, right? And everybody is super busy 120% of the time. There is something about being in commercial about who you choose to invest in relationships and when and why, and whether you pass them on to others and how honest you are in the conversations with the people that you're talking to.
[00:19:47] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, absolutely. And so we'll often get people to, to map out their stakeholder networks to see, you know, are there some gaps here? Are we overinvested in some relationships or underinvested in others, you know, and just draw it out to [00:20:00] see where those, maybe there might be some hidden connections.
[00:20:04] Jim Bloomfield: Within your own network between some of the people you're trying to network with or maybe internally there's some great relationships that could help make some introductions for you into a key conversation. And yeah, it can be really interesting doing that exercise and seeing how that really helps people going forwards words
[00:20:21] Helen Wada: I think you're right. It comes back to one of the coaching exercises that we work, you know, with led a post-it notes to go, okay, what's going on? Let's map it out.
[00:20:29] Jim Bloomfield: or.
[00:20:29] Helen Wada: You know, there's only so much you can do. List or a CRM system. They're great for what they are, but sometimes you just need to look at it visually.
[00:20:38] Helen Wada: And you know, we always talk about, you know, the constellation work we do is going to the gaps. And sometimes people feel the gaps of a problem. Actually the gap. The gaps are your insight. Who don't we know? Where are they coming from? What's important to them from a personal perspective? Where are they heading?
[00:20:56] Helen Wada: From a professional perspective? Is the next project that the next [00:21:00] opportunity for them to move forward in their career? or.
[00:21:03] Helen Wada: you know, who is it that's interested in this from a wider system? And again, who are their customers? Customers, right? You all of a sudden. Particularly working in larger organizations, you can, these diagrams can get quite big quite quickly, but are nevertheless important to do.
[00:21:18] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, I think so because, you know, we're all probably all good. Guilty of this. I know I am. You just get into a flow. It's like an act action or activity flow of, you know, I'm picking up the phone and making this call to this person because I know they'll answer and you know, we've agreed we'll speak once a month or once a quarter or whatever, but is that the right person to be speaking to at that time?
[00:21:40] Jim Bloomfield: Whereas that time better spent trying to develop a new relationship or talking to someone internally who might be able to, you know. Help you with an opportunity. For example, we're all time poor, so, you know, how are we spending that time when we're investing in some of those relationships and conversations is important as well as just [00:22:00] having them as a kind of matter of course.
[00:22:02] Helen Wada: the point, you know, right at the top, talking about authentic relationships being me, fearful of selling, you know this terminology. I'm sat here and I'm listening to you and I talk, and it's like, yeah, that all makes sense. I get it. I still don't like it. What do you see? How do you see that play out in sort of psychometrics that you do?
[00:22:25] Jim Bloomfield: Well, you see it because you see those behaviors coming out in the tools that that we use. So, for example, in Acuity, because we benchmark people's responses against our database, you can start to see, okay, who perhaps has these skills, these behaviors and for, other people that don't, you know, where are the gaps?
[00:22:45] Jim Bloomfield: Of the time people have some, but not all of those behaviors. So it's helping to really pinpoint, okay, where does, where do we need to invest in, in supporting this individual to help them grow and develop? As I say, you know, we talk about sales training and that, that's great for a, from a [00:23:00] skills and knowledge perspective, but if the issue is, you know, motivation and drive, then actually sending someone on training course isn't necessarily gonna help them.
[00:23:08] Jim Bloomfield: That's where.
[00:23:09] Coaching and Motivation[00:23:09] Coaching and Authenticity in Sales
[00:23:13] Jim Bloomfield: Maybe coaching really comes in to try and unlock, you know, what are the issues here? Are they temporary or are they permanent? You know, I've had people say to me in a debrief, I don't like selling, I don't want to sell. They may change their mind over time, but that's not gonna be a quick, a very quick fix.
[00:23:25] Jim Bloomfield: And therefore the question maybe becomes, you know, is this per person better suited to a different role in the organization where. You know, they're not fearful of a big aspect of what they're being asked to do.
[00:23:38] Helen Wada: It's interesting, isn't it, because.
[00:23:39] Personal Journey in Sales
[00:23:47] Helen Wada: Actually, the way that I come at it, Jim, I mean I, as you know, I never wanted to be in sales, you know, for those people that have listened to this podcast for a long time. If you told me 25 years ago that I'd be start leading a business about leadership and coaching and sales, I, you know, I would've gone never in a million years.
[00:23:57] Helen Wada: I didn't like that thought. I was that person that was [00:24:00] like, I don't want to sell. I want, you know, because I want to add value to others. Actually, you know, it's come full circle and what I realized was actually the skills that I was using in coaching were the skills that I used when I was sat in the boardroom and these very skills, not to put us, not that I have got a commercial focus, but it's not all about the number.
[00:24:24] Helen Wada: It's about the number, but actually if we take a coaching approach and getting curious, actually for me, that has flipped the way in which we view sales because you are actually putting the customer at the heart of what you do. And you have to take a step back. You have to get curious. And actually, you know, we don't talk about men and women because I think everybody's different, but actually the skills of connection, the skills of intimacy to get to really understand all it is the customer's.
[00:24:54] Helen Wada: After. I've seen women that are brilliant at that, they're often the most, the [00:25:00] ones that are most fearful of going into a sales role, so to speak.
[00:25:05] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. And it is interesting when we look at the data for our tool, we see that there is no significant difference between men and women when it comes to behavior. And I think that's where it's really. It is really interesting. I find it really interesting to, to think about the behaviors that underpin success, but not in a rigid way.
[00:25:23] Jim Bloomfield: Then it's about coaching people to say, okay, how can you, going back to our point around authenticity, bring those behaviors to life because if you take.
[00:25:33] Networking and Authenticity[00:25:33] Networking and Personal Comfort Zones
[00:25:33] Jim Bloomfield: Networking, for example, there's a, you know, there's lots of different ways to do it. If you mandated to me that I had to go to, you know, five networking events a month, I would hate that.
[00:25:43] Jim Bloomfield: 'cause I don't like being in large groups of people that I don't know. And I would leave as quickly as I could. But you know, I might set myself a goal of going to one a month. And that's comfortable for me. But then I'll do other ways of, you know, networking obviously. [00:26:00] Social media is, you know, makes all of that a lot easier than it used to be.
[00:26:04] Jim Bloomfield: But also maybe really leverage the existing relationships I've got to try and find new connections that's more comfortable to me. For other people, it may be different. So it's not so much saying, this is how you do it. It's about saying this is the behavior, how can you do it?
[00:26:19] Helen Wada: And that's again, it comes back down to that coaching approach, isn't it, Jim? It's like a understanding why you. What's your purpose? And that's not your, you know, big audacious purpose. It's like bringing it back down to why does this matter to you? Why is it?
[00:26:34] Helen Wada: important whether you are selling, or quite frankly, whether you are influencing others.
[00:26:40] Helen Wada: I was coaching earlier this morning and we were talking about conversations of. How do you influence in the boardroom? How do you influence when you are having a difficult conversation when people have got a different perspective to you? So where do you come from? It's getting under the skin. It's asking those questions and it's thinking about your customers [00:27:00] in a different way. 'cause it's not all about just giving them the answers, it's finding your way. Of doing it that fits you and who you are. That's the authentic piece, right? So we're not saying you must do this. It's like, these are the options. What feels right to you, and how can you create that connection with the people that like you, trust you, that you can work with?
[00:27:26] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. And we've been thinking in those terms around leadership behavior for years. Authentic leadership has been a term that's been used for a long time, but it seems still seems quite. New in, in the world of sales because there've been such a focus on the, you know, on the idea that there's a single, one, single process or methodology that leads to success.
[00:27:47] Jim Bloomfield: Actually, we've removed all of the human elements of selling. If you go down that route.
[00:27:51] Human-Centered Sales
[00:27:51] Helen Wada: And I guess that's where human wise comes in, right? What are we, a month? A month tomorrow? When the book launches, but that's. [00:28:00] Why I've written the book. 'cause for me, it's to give people the power, put the power back into people to try and change the narrative. That it doesn't have to be one way. It doesn't have to be the 1970s, 1980s way that we were brought up.
[00:28:17] Helen Wada: About what? Selling's about that actually. It's about creating commercial growth.
[00:28:25] Human-Centered Sales and AI
[00:28:25] Helen Wada: Through human-centered relationships and activities. Yeah, we've got a ai, we are all gonna be using it more.
[00:28:31] AI and the Future of Sales
[00:28:31] Helen Wada: You know, even I'm using it, you know, this month more than I was doing last month and we will all continue to learn and build.
[00:28:38] Helen Wada: AI was at the front of everything in 2025. But actually to continue to grow our businesses to, to continue to grow ourselves, we need to look. Into leadership and the way in which we've developed some of these human skills in leadership, but actually they're the skills that we need to grow the top and bottom line on the front line.
[00:28:59] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, [00:29:00] absolutely. I mean, you know, with all the investment in ai, there's still gonna be an a point at which there has to be a human interface to. To move a sale forwards. And that might be getting later down the funnel, but at some point still, there's gonna be a conversation between at least two human beings to agree what the outcome is.
[00:29:19] Helen Wada: Unless they're gonna turn us all into robots, which you know, you never quite know. And talking about turning people into, you know, people that sell, we need to grow our businesses. You and I both work with professional services firms quite a bit, where you've got brilliant experts and absolutely brilliant professionals.
[00:29:37] Helen Wada: Whether those engineers, there's a finance people, whether they're legal professionals even coaches, right? I have coaches come to me saying, I wanna be coach. How do I grow my business? What do I do? And getting out there as an expert is.
[00:29:55] Helen Wada: quite a different mindset and skillset to the one that they've developed [00:30:00] through their professional training.
[00:30:01] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Intentional Sales Strategies[00:30:02] Intentional Sales Strategies
[00:30:02] Jim Bloomfield: So I think, you know, the advice I'd give it would be to be intentional. I see a lot of technical experts in all sorts of different sectors for whom sales is like a side of the desk activity I'd call it. So when they're quiet they'll. Find the time to undertake some activity that they would class as, as sort of sales activity when they're busy with the, with delivery.
[00:30:27] Jim Bloomfield: That's the bit that they enjoy. That's the area that's comfortable. It's leveraging all of that technical expertise. They really lean into that. So what you find is that their sales activity is quite choppy. It looks a bit like a rollercoaster, and it's all based on how much time they think they have, whereas, you know.
[00:30:43] Jim Bloomfield: I think to be successful, you've gotta be consistent and therefore you need to be intentional. You need to be really disciplined yourself to say, this is how much time I'm gonna spend on sales or business development activity per week, per month. And break it down into some really clear [00:31:00] specifics, some goals that you can hold yourself to account against.
[00:31:04] Helen Wada: It's a bit like running your own business, isn't it? I mean, it is running your own business effectively because. Is that's what you and I are doing as entrepreneurs. You know, we are entrepreneurs running our own businesses, but you are delivering work alongside building new relationships, talking to different people in the market.
[00:31:24] Helen Wada: I mean, I, when I started out, you know, three, four years ago now. Again, thinking about selling. I didn't think about selling. This wasn't about selling me. I was like, okay, what's going on in the market? And, we are gonna talk about reframe. How do you reframe these conversations to something that it says, actually you are getting curious, you are interested in what's going on.
[00:31:47] Helen Wada: You are constantly learning. What is it that's important to them? What are their competitors doing? The more that you are out having conversations, the more you will learn. and you need insight to get your [00:32:00] own ideas together. There to say, actually what's giving us the insight to be able to pass that knowledge of value onto That's not going around and confidence. Anything from a confidentiality point of view, but you're just being out in the market to learn and understand what's important to your customers. Has to be a place to start.
[00:32:19] Jim Bloomfield: And that enables you then to develop a perspective that might be new or different or unique because you know, the more you know about what's going on in the market and what competitors are up to, the more you can find your niche.
[00:32:31] Helen Wada: And it comes back down to, well, how do you show up? What's your value? Why you I certainly realized that, you know, the more I was out talking to people, the more I got clear on what was needed and what the gaps were. Therefore you are right. You can create ideas, solutions to then collaborate with others. Yeah.
[00:32:49] Helen Wada: hopefully that's creating business, right?
[00:32:51] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah,
[00:32:51] Helen Wada: And maybe you wanna terminate selling, but what you're doing is you're creating and adding value
[00:32:56] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, ab absolutely. And I think from a [00:33:00] customer side then customers are perhaps a little bit more open to that collaborative model as well. So I, you know, I've seen, I've worked with large clients who maybe 10, 15 years ago wouldn't have employed. A small consultancy. But now they're prepared to do that.
[00:33:18] Jim Bloomfield: They're open to, because actually that's where a lot of the innovation comes from. Small, nimble firms that are able to move quickly
[00:33:26] Helen Wada: No, absolutely. And going back to sort of those leadership qualities, you know, you, you grew up your career started in psychometrics and Yeah. I know you are trained in a number of areas including, you know, Hogan and others. But tell us what's different about psychometrics for sales?
[00:33:45] Helen Wada: What's unique about a profiling. In the sales world.
[00:33:51] Jim Bloomfield: Okay. Sure. So, well, first and foremost, you need to understand how people behave in a sales. Setting as opposed to other elements [00:34:00] of the role. So again, coming back to the point that, you know, we feel a lot of us feel uncomfortable with selling then how we feel influences how we behave. And so, that then influence influences the results in a sales psychometric. So for example, I might profile as someone who's very gregarious and outgoing in a typical psychometric, but in, in response to a sales psychometric, it might show that actually I don't enjoy networking. And the two would.
[00:34:30] Jim Bloomfield: Appear to be at odds, but often you find that people who are very sociable don't then like the idea of using those social skills to sell. And so they wouldn't necessarily make great salespeople. Whereas the underlying assumption might be, you know, if you enjoy talking to people and building relationships, you'll be great at selling.
[00:34:48] Jim Bloomfield: That comes back to that point around how we feel about sales. So it's important in a psychometric to be asking the right questions about how people behave in the right. Circumstances in this [00:35:00] case, in a sales situation.
[00:35:02] Helen Wada: So I guess whether you're doing it through psychometric, whether you're doing it through conversation. It's getting under the skin of what's important to you, why? And finding a way in which you can add value to others your way, right? We are not looking to, we are not looking to change who you are, but looking to stretch your behaviors and competencies in a way that works for you.
[00:35:27] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah and we often talk about demystifying sales, so sharing these behaviors and showing that they're not these kind of alien. Concepts that are, you know, so different to ha to behaviors that you might use around the office. It's about, as you said, how you might stretch those behaviors or apply them in slightly different circumstances or just think about them differently if they make you feel uncomfortable.
[00:35:51] Jim Bloomfield: But you know, there's a lot of skills that you probably already using in, in other aspects of your role. You know, the problem solving, the relationship [00:36:00] building you know, that sort of thing. They're not. They're not different. They're just applied differently and maybe you have to think about them differently as well.
[00:36:08] Helen Wada: I think you're right now. Brings me to, I talk about it in human wise, but that leadership and sales, and actually the skills needed for both for me are very intertwined. You know, we've always treated them as skills for selling, skills for leadership as two completely different buckets. You know, you look at where budgets sit from an organization perspective.
[00:36:30] Helen Wada: You've got different budgets, but fundamentally, 80% of these skills that we talk about. Are the same for internal leadership as they are for external sales,
[00:36:41] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. Well, in, in both cases you are, you're trying to move people, aren't you. Leaders are trying to move.
[00:36:46] Jim Bloomfield: Teams and employees to greater heights of productivity. And salespeople are trying to do the same with their clients. They're trying to move them and win their, you know, win their trust.
[00:36:57] Helen Wada: Yeah. And for me it's that the thing that [00:37:00] sits in the center is that DNA of being human, right? It is about how you show up. It's about how we understand others. It's about your mindset that goes into each and every conversation. How do you show up? And then once you are in the room. How do you act and adapt, right?
[00:37:17] Helen Wada: This is the human, and then the next steps say what? What next? What's your team gonna do? What's your customer gonna do? What are the next conversations that we're gonna have to move this business forward? And I think if we do take a step back and say, hang on a minute, let's look at the skills that we need and the behaviors in a different way with a different lens. It actually stops that sort of view of selling to you. Actually now this is just about good human business and good human leadership.
[00:37:47] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. And it come, it comes back again, I think to how a lot of people feel about sales. It's seen as this thing that's other and therefore, you know. Sales is off as a as a function is often left to itself [00:38:00] within a business. So you know all of those good practices that might go on in terms of leadership development, for example, actually, when you say what, you know, what are you doing on the sales side around, you know, behavior and development and progression.
[00:38:16] Jim Bloomfield: The answer is often not very much. Um, and even sales leadership, you know, there's, again, there's lots of data out there just that says, you know, sales leaders often they're overpromoted 'cause they've been great salespeople. They're not necessarily great people managers. I would argue that's probably not their motivation.
[00:38:35] Jim Bloomfield: If they were great salespeople, they wanna be out. Out of the organization, talking to the market, talking to clients, to suddenly promote them. And then, you know, the primary fun role is to be internally facing managing people. That's a very different set of drivers that you're asking this individual to switch on overnight.
[00:38:55] Jim Bloomfield: And surprise, a lot of them, you know, don't enjoy it and don't get the best out of their [00:39:00] teams.
[00:39:00] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:39:01] Helen Wada: And again, it links through to, well, what can we do from a coaching perspective and whether you are, what are the motivators, but some of those best people on in the external market. They need the skills to lead and coach others to bring the teams on with them. 'cause actually, sometimes what you find is bottlenecks at the top and then people aren't growing.
[00:39:24] Helen Wada: And seeing that from those above because they're, it's all about me unless about the team. And that's a whole nother conversation that how the human approach, how the coaching approach can help to turn your best revenue generators into. Commercial champions, coach, you know, commercial coaching champions to, to bring the team with them.
[00:39:45] Helen Wada: I am conscious of time. We could talk about this all day. Before we go, I always like to ask our guests, one top tip and one question for the listeners to reflect on for themselves. Based upon the conversation, [00:40:00] where would you start? What would be your top tip?
[00:40:03] Jim Bloomfield: Top tip would be to be intentional, so, no, having no plan, no structure, no measure of success will not will not get you to where you want to be. So I would say to people, even if it's small it's better than nothing. So. Make yourself a commitment, focus on executing on that, whatever that might be.
[00:40:25] Jim Bloomfield: You know, whether it is something around going to networking events or putting out thought leadership on social media or, you know, something of that nature. But something's better than nothing and make sure it's consistent. And the question, the que well, the question I like to use when I'm coaching is what do you want to be known for?
[00:40:45] Jim Bloomfield: and it's always interesting to, to sort of then work from the answer there. But for me, you know, as a, as an addition there, I would be encouraging people to think about what are you already really good at and how can you leverage that further in a sales [00:41:00] setting.
[00:41:00] Jim Bloomfield: You know, we've all got development needs.
[00:41:03] Jim Bloomfield: Those development needs are hard to develop, otherwise we'd have action them already. Right. So at the. If you want a quick win, think about a strength and how you can really amplify it in the sales or business development world.
[00:41:13] Helen Wada: Yeah. absolutely. And I think it's tapping into what's important to you and what you enjoy. Right.
[00:41:19] Helen Wada: And build on that rather than trying to do something that is against. What we want to be doing and where we wanna be going. 'cause then it's a different question to answer. I,
[00:41:29] Jim Bloomfield: If it's a strength, it's probably something you enjoy already. It's familiar, it's comfortable, you know how to do it. So squeezing a bit more from that is gonna be a lot easier.
[00:41:39] Helen Wada: I think, you know, I mean, we're both running our own businesses, but if, whether you're in a big organization or a small organization, your brand is you. And I think in the world that we're operating in today, it's so important that you work, you know, focus on. What is your brand? Who are, what are you known for? And that evolves and changes as well. I think. I think sometimes [00:42:00] we don't stop and think about who am I now versus who I was five, 10 years ago.
[00:42:06] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that, that point around self-reflection and sort of regularly pausing and taking time out of the day job to, you know, really think about. You know, where you've got to, where you want to be in future. And as you say how that might have changed over time, that's that's probably a whole nother topic, isn't it?
[00:42:25] Helen Wada: Well, it's a good point to, to leave us on. Jim, thank you so much for joining the show. It's really great to have you on and look forward to seeing you again soon.
[00:42:34] Jim Bloomfield: Marvelous. I look forward to reading the book. Thanks Helen. Thanks for having me. I.
[00:42:36]
[00:43:26] Jim Bloomfield: for me it's about being authentic. So in sales there's a lot of focus on. You know, certain processes or methodologies. Every, you know, organization has a sales methodology. But I think if you, if they're too kind of rigorously imposed, then you do sort of lose that human element.
[00:43:45] Jim Bloomfield: And I think for a salesperson. You know, you need to be authentic. People need to believe in you. Your clients need to believe in you and you know, be able to feel that they can trust you. And I think you can only achieve that by being authentic to yourself. So for me it's about helping people to understand [00:44:00] how they can, you know, whilst there might be a process or methodology they need to adhere to it's about how they can do that authentically.
[00:44:09] Helen Wada: You, you raised a good question. You talk about being authentic, and we're gonna come back to that in a moment. I would still say in the world that we're operating today in 2026, you know, we passed 2025, but there was still these kind of, fear months technical experts, but other people of selling now, I think, you know, we are sitting the SAT in the uk.
[00:44:30] Helen Wada: I know there's people that listen to this podcast globally. I think if you were to look at the US it may be slightly, D sales is really considered to be a profession still.
[00:44:46] Jim Bloomfield: Helen, I've lost your audio there. Can't hear you. Yeah,
[00:44:49] Helen Wada: Oh, can you hear me now? Oh,
[00:44:51] Jim Bloomfield: I can now. Yeah, it just cut out.
[00:44:54] Helen Wada: really weird. Well said. For doing [00:45:00] that. I will park again. Can you hear me now?
[00:45:02] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, that seems okay. Yeah.
[00:45:04] Helen Wada: Alright. I'm not moving or touching anything. So I'll go back to a point actually that's for edit.
[00:45:08] Authenticity and Trust in Sales
[00:45:08] Helen Wada: So Jim, you make a great point now about being authentic and being true to yourself to create trusted relationships.
[00:45:16] Helen Wada: But actually there's still something particularly here. You know, you and I sat in the uk. I think if you were to look at the US it may well be different. Sales is considered to be sort of a profession than something else you do on the side. But people that I'm talking to. Every day. And like, I'm still getting, but I don't like selling.
[00:45:36] Helen Wada: Sales is icky, sales is not for me. Where do you think that comes from? From a psychological perspective?
[00:45:43] Jim Bloomfield: Great question. Well, it's interesting, I dunno if you've read Daniel Pink's book to sell his human in that he does a lot of research around the, well, this question really, and I think one of the really interesting things in, in, in his research is he actually [00:46:00] undertook a survey of individuals to find out how they feel about.
[00:46:03] Jim Bloomfield: Sales and selling. And what he found was that a lot of that, a lot of the way that people feel about selling comes down to a natural sort of underlying discomfort but also a distaste of sales. And it's really deep rooted. Because one of the things that he then followed up with was to ask people what's what image sort of springs to mind when they think of sales and really consistent what was coming.
[00:46:26] Jim Bloomfield: Across was that image of a car salesman, a used car salesman, and all the inferences that perhaps go with that, which may be unfair, but you know, the idea of, you know, someone in a shiny suit. Trying to sell you something that, you know, probably has some problems underneath the hoods that you're not gonna be aware of as you drive off the forecourt.
[00:46:45] Jim Bloomfield: So I think there's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of sort of cultural discomfort, as I say with the idea of selling and people, perceiving that others will see them as, you know, sort of underhand in some way if they admit to being a salesperson. And I think a lot of [00:47:00] people, myself included, I've worked in sales.
[00:47:02] Jim Bloomfield: You know, when I first started I felt really uncomfortable with selling for a number of reasons. I probably know better now what those reasons are based on the work that I do. But, and some of those things I can change some of those things. I just have to, you know, perhaps live with and manage better.
[00:47:18] Jim Bloomfield: I can't change them.
[00:47:19] Helen Wada: And it is interesting that you know, you've been a salesman. You talk about, you know, being out on the front line when you're running a business you are effectively selling. What's helped you to shift your mindset around it?
[00:47:32] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. So a few things. One, my sales career was straight out of university and I went into it for the wrong reasons. So, those reasons were I wanted to earn as much money as possible and I saw friends who had good company cars and a lot of disposable income, and I thought, yep, okay.
[00:47:48] Jim Bloomfield: That's the route for me. So I wasn't. I wasn't in it for the right reasons. I was in it for selfish reasons, I think. Then I joined an organization in a sector that I knew nothing about. So I had no, no [00:48:00] knowledge or credibility. I mean, albeit I got trained in in, you know, their products and services.
[00:48:04] Jim Bloomfield: But you know, then going and talking to clients who. I'd worked in that field for 15, 20, 25 years. I was very much coming from a position of, you know, being the one in the room without the knowledge or the insight to add any value to those conversations. And I felt that, and it, and again, kind of led to that sense of feeling, uncomfortable and you know, that then maybe created some behaviors where I was really just an order taker as opposed to someone who, as I say, was adding any value or you know, being a trusted advisor to those clients.
[00:48:37] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:48:37] Helen Wada: and it's interesting just picking up on a couple of things there. You know, number one you talked about being selfish. And I think sales is often associated with sort of selfishness of it's all about me. And that's why people feel uncomfortable about it because actually we are trained, we want to be, you know, citizens adding value to [00:49:00] others.
[00:49:00] Helen Wada: And if you put that sales label on it, it turns it all on you. Whereas actually what we've come back to and what you were talking about there, right at the end was. How can I create value for others? How can I serve others? And I think for me, there is a mindset shift that sales, I talk about reframing, but we need to reframe sales from something that's all about me.
[00:49:26] Helen Wada: And it is historic, right? You came out of university or sales is thing where I win. For me, it's all financially driven. It's what I want in my pocket but actually. The best people selling at creating value for others is by putting a different mindset on it and about saying, how can I help?
[00:49:48] Helen Wada: How can I serve, and how can I add value?
[00:49:52] Jim Bloomfield: Yes. Yeah.
[00:49:53] Building Trust and Relationships[00:49:53] Traits of High-Performing Salespeople
[00:49:53] Jim Bloomfield: And we've profiled salespeople in lots of different sectors, and actually when you sit down and talk to them, and particularly [00:50:00] high performers, we, you know, I perhaps thought that the highest best performing salespeople would be the most. Money motivated, but we found the opposite.
[00:50:11] Jim Bloomfield: And that's quite consistent across multiple sectors. Actually, the best salespeople are not worried about their ability to hit target or make commission. They're really focused on solving client problems. And they know that if they do that and they do that well, the clients will buy from them. They'll hit their target, they'll get their commission.
[00:50:29] Jim Bloomfield: That's a byproduct. Whereas actually. The poorer performers are much more focused on how do I get to this number every month or every quarter, and then that starts to drive the wrong behaviors.
[00:50:41] Helen Wada: Isn't that interesting? Because what we see of time and time again is this. Commercial focus, right? We've gotta hit target. We are under budget. We need to do more. And that's the consistent theme. You know, again, hearing it all over, even first month in January, right? We need to do more. How close are we to our targets? [00:51:00] But what I'm hearing you saying is actually from the statistics and the profiles for those high performing individuals is actually, you need to be mindful of those targets, but in a way you need to let them go. Flip your mindset towards how can I help? What is it that the customer needs at playing the two together?
[00:51:23] Helen Wada: And that really links, I mean, we've talked about the commercial coaching approach that we take with work we do, but on the one hand, you know, why you, what do you do? What is your commercial focus? We have to prioritize. But on the other hand, it. It's taking a coaching approach, which is putting your customer at heart of your conversations and not thinking about what you individually could be curious about what it is they need.
[00:51:49] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's nothing going to damage your credibility more than trying to get them to sign on the dotted line before they're the end of the month when you know that's not their [00:52:00] driver. That's your driver.
[00:52:01] Helen Wada: And what else? Tell us what else, from a psychology standpoint, what else does psychology tell us about sales and the skills that, competencies that people need.
[00:52:13] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. So what we found is that there's a big piece around. An individual's kind of desire to be in that role. Their personal drive, if you like, to get out there, be in front of clients to have strong belief in their proposition and what they're selling and how that might add value for clients to be resilient when things are maybe not going so well.
[00:52:39] Jim Bloomfield: To be consistent in terms of how they the activity they undertake. And to be equally to sort of be reflective and to want to learn and improve as well as things like, you know, being really clear about goals and activities and how they help an individual to, to get to. You know, the [00:53:00] outcome that they're trying to achieve.
[00:53:01] Jim Bloomfield: So there's a lot in there about will, before you even get to the skills, to the behaviors, it's about an individual's drive to show up to be consistent and to be really clear about what it is they need to do in order to be successful. And what we found is that, you know, when you think about sales training address addresses a lot of the skill elements.
[00:53:22] Jim Bloomfield: But you need to have the right people in the room in the first place. And companies don't always get that right.
[00:53:27] Helen Wada: And that again got, it links back to the H of the human right.
[00:53:30] Helen Wada: It's how you show up and it's that reminding yourself of, you know, why you, and why, what is the value that you bring? Because the market is increasingly competitive. Market is less sticky. Of course. Accept, as you know, we have so many different options.
[00:53:48] Helen Wada: The options are global. There's different price points. So why you ultimately, but my observation is that people don't spend enough time really [00:54:00] thinking why you and what's your value for you? And then you get to a point, and you mentioned earlier, if people aren't very comfortable with being uncomfortable, they like to know everything. But in the complex world that we're in, we caught them, everything.
[00:54:18] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, and if you think about it, if you don't, if you don't. Believe in yourself and the value that you can add. You don't have that motivation. You're not clear about why you're in the room. Then when you do step into the room and you're in front of a client, you know that's not gonna come across particularly well.
[00:54:33] Jim Bloomfield: You know, and if you're in a competitive situation and you are, and you know, someone else is doing that and is showing how they can add value and they are confident and they are positioning themselves as this trusted advisor, then actually. When it all comes down to it, we know that people buy from people.
[00:54:49] Jim Bloomfield: So if you've got two firms in the room and one person's demonstrating that then that's where the client's gonna go.
[00:54:57] Helen Wada: You, you mentioned about trust advisor. You know, there's been long [00:55:00] been talk about, you know, build the relationships, establish the relationships, the market's competitive, right? And so we are seeing relationships turn over. More frequently because of commercial pressures requests to do things differently.
[00:55:16] Helen Wada: What does that mean for the skills and the mindset of people out there on the front line?
[00:55:23] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, what we found is that what really. Sets the high performers apart from others perhaps, is that they really understand the market, the sector that they operate in, and they're able to, to, you know, bring insight and value to clients. If clients are looking for, you know, they're looking for a change, they're looking for something different then those individuals are able to, to.
[00:55:49] Jim Bloomfield: Support that decision making process. So they're sharing what they know of the market and giving. The client's new perspectives. I mean, [00:56:00] there's a lot of stats and data around saying that buyers have access to lots more information than they have Easter. And I'm and that's absolutely true.
[00:56:09] Jim Bloomfield: But are they able to make sense of that information? That I think is less clear. And I think, you know, in the age of ai, you know, that's maybe gonna be even more problematic.
[00:56:20] Helen Wada: And you talk about making sense of information because there's something that I. People that I work with is, you know, our traditional ways of creating insight, bringing information is that, you know, understanding the market, understanding what's going on actually sometimes from other sectors. You know, I've had some great conversations here.
[00:56:40] Helen Wada: It's like, well, what is relevant from other sectors that could be applicable to the conversations that you are having? A reference one back from Hamish Taylor where they were looking at queuing British Airways and actually they turned to Disney because it's kind completely different. Who's best in the world at doing this?
[00:56:56] Helen Wada: There's two things there. It's one about understanding your customer's [00:57:00] customer, so getting curious, but also how do we make sense of things? We need time to think. We need to have a conversation. And so for me, one of the skills of help of salespeople helping our customers is to create insight through conversation. So it is not just that I'm bringing you this, it's about how can we collectively think about this issue. 'cause quite frankly, most of the issues popping up in the world today, people don't necessarily know the answers, but you have to be the one that's there helping them to make sense of something, to have an opportunity to help solve that and then work collaboratively. Yeah.
[00:57:44] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. And I think in addition to that, it's also, you know, who else do we need to speak to in the buying organization to help this decision making process? 'cause it's rarely these days down to one individual to make that decision. So, you know, I'm sure you're the same, but [00:58:00] I'll be in rooms with, you know.
[00:58:02] Jim Bloomfield: 5, 6, 7, 8 decision makers. They all represent different parts of the organization. They've all got their own kind of needs and agendas within that as well. So the way that you present that value to each of those stakeholders could be different. And it's about how you actually align them so that they can make a decision.
[00:58:19] Jim Bloomfield: Because the easiest course of action when there's that many decision makers in the room is no action.
[00:58:26] Helen Wada: Yeah. And then you end up with a status quo and nobody moves forward.
[00:58:31] Building and Leveraging Networks
[00:58:40] Helen Wada: thinking back to, you know, the psychometrics that you do with the work at and acuity and everything, what are they, you know, again, what are the traits of those high performers in understanding the landscape and who they are and how they show up?
[00:58:50] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, so, so one of the key differentiators is around that, that sort of conscious. Network building. So a lot of salespeople are good at doing [00:59:00] that externally. And they will build connections. I think the best ones are really intentional and really clear about which connections they're building, which relationships they're investing in, why they're doing that, what value that adds.
[00:59:13] Jim Bloomfield: So you might have different relationships that are driving. Different benefits for you as a salesperson, not necessarily an opportunity, but maybe those individuals, certain individuals are good sources of insight for you, but they, you know, they might, they may never buy from you, but actually they're valuable relationships to have anyway.
[00:59:32] Jim Bloomfield: Some may be. Influencing a decision maker. So you may want to think about the frequency of your relationship with those individuals if they're sitting, you know, adjacent to the decision maker to help you understand what that decision maker is thinking, for example. But the other thing we found is that, um, high performers are really good at leveraging their internal networks.
[00:59:57] Jim Bloomfield: And I often have conversations with individuals [01:00:00] to say. To what extent do you treat your internal network as if it was a customer or a client relationship? And that can be really revealing. 'cause often people have not really thought about the internal network in the same way and all the value that there is already there that they could be utilizing.
[01:00:17] Helen Wada: And it goes back to that learning piece, doesn't it? It is learning outside of your zone, your area. How do you connect and collaborate? But also how do you prioritize? 'cause there are only a certain number of hours in the day, right? And everybody is super busy 120% of the time. There is something about being in commercial about who you choose to invest in relationships and when and why, and whether you pass them on to others and how honest you are in the conversations with the people that you're talking to.
[01:00:50] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, absolutely. And so we'll often get people to, to map out their stakeholder networks to see, you know, are there some gaps here? Are we overinvested in some relationships or [01:01:00] underinvested in others, you know, and just draw it out to see where those, maybe there might be some hidden connections.
[01:01:07] Jim Bloomfield: Within your own network between some of the people you're trying to network with or maybe internally there's some great relationships that could help make some introductions for you into a key conversation. And yeah, it can be really interesting doing that exercise and seeing how that really helps people going forwards words
[01:01:24] Helen Wada: I think you're right. It comes back to one of the coaching exercises that we work, you know, with led a post-it notes to go, okay, what's going on? Let's map it out.
[01:01:32] Jim Bloomfield: or.
[01:01:32] Helen Wada: You know, there's only so much you can do. List or a CRM system. They're great for what they are, but sometimes you just need to look at it visually.
[01:01:41] Helen Wada: And you know, we always talk about, you know, the constellation work we do is going to the gaps. And sometimes people feel the gaps of a problem. Actually the gap. The gaps are your insight. Who don't we know? Where are they coming from? What's important to them from a personal perspective? Where are they heading?
[01:01:59] Helen Wada: From a professional [01:02:00] perspective? Is the next project that the next opportunity for them to move forward in their career? or.
[01:02:06] Helen Wada: you know, who is it that's interested in this from a wider system? And again, who are their customers? Customers, right? You all of a sudden. Particularly working in larger organizations, you can, these diagrams can get quite big quite quickly, but are nevertheless important to do.
[01:02:22] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, I think so because, you know, we're all probably all good.
[01:02:24] The Flow of Relationship Building
[01:02:26] Jim Bloomfield: Guilty of this. I know I am. You just get into a flow. It's like an act action or activity flow of, you know, I'm picking up the phone and making this call to this person because I know they'll answer and you know, we've agreed we'll speak once a month or once a quarter or whatever, but is that the right person to be speaking to at that time?
[01:02:43] Balancing Time and Relationships
[01:02:43] Jim Bloomfield: Whereas that time better spent trying to develop a new relationship or talking to someone internally who might be able to, you know. Help you with an opportunity. For example, we're all time poor, so, you know, how are we spending that time when we're investing in some of those relationships [01:03:00] and conversations is important as well as just having them as a kind of matter of course.
[01:03:05] Helen Wada: Yeah, the point, you know, right at the top, talking about authentic relationships being me, fearful of selling, you know this terminology. I'm sat here and I'm listening to you and I talk, and it's like, yeah, that all makes sense. I get it. I still don't like it. What do you see? How do you see that play out in sort of psychometrics that you do?
[01:03:33] Psychometrics in Sales[01:03:33] Psychometrics in Sales
[01:03:33] Jim Bloomfield: Well, you see it because you see those behaviors coming out in the tools that that we use. So, for example, in Acuity, because we benchmark people's responses against our database, you can start to see, okay, who perhaps has these skills, these behaviors and for, other people that don't, you know, where are the gaps?
[01:03:53] Jim Bloomfield: Of the time people have some, but not all of those behaviors. So it's helping to really pinpoint, okay, where does, where do we need to invest [01:04:00] in, in supporting this individual to help them grow and develop? As I say, you know, we talk about sales training and that, that's great for a, from a skills and knowledge perspective, but if the issue is, you know, motivation and drive, then actually sending someone on training course isn't necessarily gonna help them.
[01:04:16] Jim Bloomfield: That's where. Maybe coaching really comes in to try and unlock, you know, what are the issues here? Are they temporary or are they permanent? You know, I've had people say to me in a debrief, I don't like selling, I don't want to sell. They may change their mind over time, but that's not gonna be a quick, a very quick fix.
[01:04:33] Jim Bloomfield: And therefore the question maybe becomes, you know, is this per person better suited to a different role in the organization where. You know, they're not fearful of a big aspect of what they're being asked to do.
[01:04:47] Helen Wada: It's interesting, isn't it, because. Actually, the way that I come at it, Jim, I mean I, as you know, I never wanted to be in sales, you know, for those people that have listened to this podcast for a long time. If you told me 25 years ago that I'd be [01:05:00] start leading a business about leadership and coaching and sales, I, you know, I would've gone never in a million years.
[01:05:06] Helen Wada: I didn't like that thought. I was that person that was like, I don't want to sell. I want, you know, because I want to add value to others. Actually, you know, it's come full circle and what I realized was actually the skills that I was using in coaching were the skills that I used when I was sat in the boardroom and these very skills, not to put us, not that I have got a commercial focus, but it's not all about the number.
[01:05:35] Helen Wada: It's about the number, but actually if we take a coaching approach and getting curious, actually for me, that has flipped the way in which we view sales because you are actually putting the customer at the heart of what you do. And you have to take a step back. You have to get curious. And actually, you know, we don't talk about men and women because I think everybody's different, but actually the skills of connection, the [01:06:00] skills of intimacy to get to really understand all it is the customer's.
[01:06:04] Helen Wada: After. I've seen women that are brilliant at that, they're often the most, the ones that are most fearful of going into a sales role, so to speak.
[01:06:17] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. And it is interesting when we look at the data for our tool, we see that there is no significant difference between men and women when it comes to behavior. And I think that's where it's really. It is really interesting. I find it really interesting to, to think about the behaviors that underpin success, but not in a rigid way.
[01:06:35] Jim Bloomfield: Then it's about coaching people to say, okay, how can you, going back to our point around authenticity, bring those behaviors to life because if you take. Networking, for example, there's a, you know, there's lots of different ways to do it. If you mandated to me that I had to go to, you know, five networking events a month, I would hate that.
[01:06:55] Jim Bloomfield: 'cause I don't like being in large groups of people that I don't know. And I would leave as quickly [01:07:00] as I could. But you know, I might set myself a goal of going to one a month. And that's comfortable for me. But then I'll do other ways of, you know, networking obviously. Social media is, you know, makes all of that a lot easier than it used to be.
[01:07:16] Jim Bloomfield: But also maybe really leverage the existing relationships I've got to try and find new connections that's more comfortable to me. For other people, it may be different. So it's not so much saying, this is how you do it. It's about saying this is the behavior, how can you do it?
[01:07:31] Helen Wada: And that's again, it comes back down to that coaching approach, isn't it, Jim? It's like a understanding why you. What's your purpose? And that's not your, you know, big audacious purpose. It's like bringing it back down to why does this matter to you? Why is it?
[01:07:46] Helen Wada: important whether you are selling, or quite frankly, whether you are influencing others.
[01:07:52] Helen Wada: I was coaching earlier this morning and we were talking about conversations of. How do you influence in the boardroom? How do you influence when you are having a [01:08:00] difficult conversation when people have got a different perspective to you? So where do you come from? It's getting under the skin. It's asking those questions and it's thinking about your customers in a different way. 'cause it's not all about just giving them the answers, it's finding your way. Of doing it that fits you and who you are. That's the authentic piece, right? So we're not saying you must do this. It's like, these are the options. What feels right to you, and how can you create that connection with the people that like you, trust you, that you can work with?
[01:08:38] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. And we've been thinking in those terms around leadership behavior for years. Authentic leadership has been a term that's been used for a long time, but it seems still seems quite. New in, in the world of sales because there've been such a focus on the, you know, on the idea that there's a single, one, single process or methodology that leads to success.
[01:08:58] Jim Bloomfield: Actually, we've [01:09:00] removed all of the human elements of selling. If you go down that route.
[01:09:03] Helen Wada: Yeah. And I guess that's where human wise comes in, right? What are we, a month? A month tomorrow? When the book launches, but that's. Why I've written the book. 'cause for me, it's to give people the power, put the power back into people to try and change the narrative. That it doesn't have to be one way. It doesn't have to be the 1970s, 1980s way that we were brought up.
[01:09:29] Helen Wada: About what? Selling's about that actually. It's about creating commercial growth. Through human-centered relationships and activities. Yeah, we've got a ai, we are all gonna be using it more. You know, even I'm using it, you know, this month more than I was doing last month and we will all continue to learn and build.
[01:09:51] Helen Wada: AI was at the front of everything in 2025. But actually to continue to grow our businesses to, to continue to grow [01:10:00] ourselves, we need to look. Into leadership and the way in which we've developed some of these human skills in leadership, but actually they're the skills that we need to grow the top and bottom line on the front line.
[01:10:13] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, with all the investment in ai, there's still gonna be an a point at which there has to be a human interface to. To move a sale forwards. And that might be getting later down the funnel, but at some point still, there's gonna be a conversation between at least two human beings to agree what the outcome is.
[01:10:32] Helen Wada: Unless they're gonna turn us all into robots, which you know, you never quite know. And talking about turning people into, you know, people that sell, we need to grow our businesses. You and I both work with professional services firms quite a bit, where you've got brilliant experts and absolutely brilliant professionals.
[01:10:52] Helen Wada: Whether those engineers, there's a finance people, whether they're legal professionals even coaches, right? I have coaches come to [01:11:00] me saying, I wanna be coach. How do I grow my business? What do I do? And getting out there as an expert is.
[01:11:09] Helen Wada: quite a different mindset and skillset to the one that they've developed through their professional training.
[01:11:16] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, the advice I'd give it would be to be intentional. I see a lot of technical experts in all sorts of different sectors for whom sales is like a side of the desk activity I'd call it. So when they're quiet they'll. Find the time to undertake some activity that they would class as, as sort of sales activity when they're busy with the, with delivery.
[01:11:44] Jim Bloomfield: That's the bit that they enjoy. That's the area that's comfortable. It's leveraging all of that technical expertise. They really lean into that. So what you find is that their sales activity is quite choppy. It looks a bit like a rollercoaster, and it's all based on how much time they think they have, whereas, you know.
[01:11:59] Jim Bloomfield: [01:12:00] I think to be successful, you've gotta be consistent and therefore you need to be intentional. You need to be really disciplined yourself to say, this is how much time I'm gonna spend on sales or business development activity per week, per month. And break it down into some really clear specifics, some goals that you can hold yourself to account against.
[01:12:20] Helen Wada: It's a bit like running your own business, isn't it? I mean, it is running your own business effectively because. Is that's what you and I are doing as entrepreneurs. You know, we are entrepreneurs running our own businesses, but you are delivering work alongside building new relationships, talking to different people in the market.
[01:12:40] Helen Wada: I mean, I, when I started out, you know, three, four years ago now. Again, thinking about selling. I didn't think about selling. This wasn't about selling me. I was like, okay, what's going on in the market? And, we are gonna talk about reframe. How do you reframe these conversations to something [01:13:00] that it says, actually you are getting curious, you are interested in what's going on.
[01:13:04] Helen Wada: You are constantly learning. What is it that's important to them? What are their competitors doing? The more that you are out having conversations, the more you will learn. and you need insight to get your own ideas together. There to say, actually what's giving us the insight to be able to pass that knowledge of value onto this.
[01:13:23] Helen Wada: That's not going around and confidence. Anything from a confidentiality point of view, but you're just being out in the market to learn and understand what's important to your customers. Has to be a place to start.
[01:13:38] Jim Bloomfield: And that enables you then to develop a perspective that might be new or different or unique because you know, the more you know about what's going on in the market and what competitors are up to, the more you can find your niche.
[01:13:50] Helen Wada: And it comes back down to, well, how do you show up? What's your value? Why you I certainly realized that, you know, the more I was out talking to people, the more I got [01:14:00] clear on what was needed and what the gaps were. Therefore you are right. You can create ideas, solutions to then collaborate with others. Yeah.
[01:14:08] Helen Wada: hopefully that's creating business, right?
[01:14:10] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah,
[01:14:11] Helen Wada: And maybe you wanna terminate selling, but what you're doing is you're creating and adding value
[01:14:19] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, ab absolutely. And I think from a customer side then customers are perhaps a little bit more open to that collaborative model as well. So I, you know, I've seen, I've worked with large clients who maybe 10, 15 years ago wouldn't have employed. A small consultancy. But now they're prepared to do that.
[01:14:42] Jim Bloomfield: They're open to, because actually that's where a lot of the innovation comes from. Small, nimble firms that are able to move quickly
[01:14:49] Helen Wada: Yeah. No, absolutely.
[01:14:51] Leadership and Sales Skills
[01:14:51] Helen Wada: And going back to sort of those leadership qualities, you know, you, you grew up your career started in [01:15:00] psychometrics and Yeah. I know you are trained in a number of areas including, you know, Hogan and others. But tell us what's different about psychometrics for sales?
[01:15:10] Helen Wada: What's unique about a profiling. In the sales world.
[01:15:16] Jim Bloomfield: Okay. Sure. So, well, first and foremost, you need to understand how people behave in a sales. Setting as opposed to other elements of the role. So again, coming back to the point that, you know, we feel a lot of us feel uncomfortable with selling then how we feel influences how we behave. And so, that then influence influences the results in a sales psychometric. So for example, I might profile as someone who's very gregarious and outgoing in a typical psychometric, but in, in response to a sales psychometric, it might show that actually I don't enjoy networking. And the two would.
[01:15:55] Jim Bloomfield: Appear to be at odds, but often you find that people who are very sociable [01:16:00] don't then like the idea of using those social skills to sell. And so they wouldn't necessarily make great salespeople. Whereas the underlying assumption might be, you know, if you enjoy talking to people and building relationships, you'll be great at selling.
[01:16:14] Jim Bloomfield: That comes back to that point around how we feel about sales. So it's important in a psychometric to be asking the right questions about how people behave in the right. Circumstances in this case, in a sales situation.
[01:16:28] Helen Wada: So I guess whether you're doing it through psychometric, whether you're doing it through conversation. It's getting under the skin of what's important to you, why? And finding a way in which you can add value to others your way, right? We are not looking to, we are not looking to change who you are, but looking to stretch your behaviors and competencies in a way that works for you.
[01:16:54] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah and we often talk about demystifying sales, so sharing these [01:17:00] behaviors and showing that they're not these kind of alien. Concepts that are, you know, so different to ha to behaviors that you might use around the office. It's about, as you said, how you might stretch those behaviors or apply them in slightly different circumstances or just think about them differently if they make you feel uncomfortable.
[01:17:18] Jim Bloomfield: But you know, there's a lot of skills that you probably already using in, in other aspects of your role. You know, the problem solving, the relationship building you know, that sort of thing. They're not. They're not different. They're just applied differently and maybe you have to think about them differently as well.
[01:17:35] Helen Wada: I think you're right now.
[01:17:36] Leadership and Sales Skills Overlap
[01:17:48] Helen Wada: Brings me to, I talk about it in human wise, but that leadership and sales, and actually the skills needed for both for me are very intertwined. You know, we've always treated them as skills for selling, skills for leadership as two completely different buckets. You know, you look at where budgets sit from an organization perspective.
[01:17:57] Helen Wada: You've got different budgets, but [01:18:00] fundamentally, 80% of these skills that we talk about. Are the same for internal leadership as they are for external sales,
[01:18:08] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. Well, in, in both cases you are, you're trying to move people, aren't you. Leaders are trying to move.
[01:18:13] Helen Wada: yep.
[01:18:14] Jim Bloomfield: Teams and employees to greater heights of productivity. And salespeople are trying to do the same with their clients. They're trying to move them and win their, you know, win their trust.
[01:18:25] Helen Wada: Yeah. And for me it's that the thing that sits in the center is that DNA of being human, right? It is about how you show up. It's about how we understand others. It's about your mindset that goes into each and every conversation. How do you show up? And then once you are in the room. How do you act and adapt, right?
[01:18:45] Helen Wada: This is the human, and then the next steps say what? What next? What's your team gonna do? What's your customer gonna do? What are the next conversations that we're gonna have to move this business forward? And I think if we do take a step back and say, hang on [01:19:00] a minute, let's look at the skills that we need and the behaviors in a different way with a different lens. It actually stops that sort of view of selling to you. Actually now this is just about good human business and good human leadership.
[01:19:18] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah. Yeah. And it come, it comes back again, I think to how a lot of people feel about sales. It's seen as this thing that's other and therefore, you know. Sales is off as a as a function is often left to itself within a business. So you know all of those good practices that might go on in terms of leadership development, for example, actually, when you say what, you know, what are you doing on the sales side around, you know, behavior and development and progression.
[01:19:47] Jim Bloomfield: The answer is often not very much. Um, and even sales leadership, you know, there's, again, there's lots of data out there just that says, you know, sales leaders often they're overpromoted 'cause they've been great [01:20:00] salespeople. They're not necessarily great people managers. I would argue that's probably not their motivation.
[01:20:05] Jim Bloomfield: If they were great salespeople, they wanna be out. Out of the organization, talking to the market, talking to clients, to suddenly promote them. And then, you know, the primary fun role is to be internally facing managing people. That's a very different set of drivers that you're asking this individual to switch on overnight.
[01:20:26] Jim Bloomfield: And surprise, a lot of them, you know, don't enjoy it and don't get the best out of their teams.
[01:20:31] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[01:20:32] Helen Wada: And again, it links through to, well, what can we do from a coaching perspective and whether you are, what are the motivators, but some of those best people on in the external market. They need the skills to lead and coach others to bring the teams on with them. 'cause actually, sometimes what you find is bottlenecks at the top and then people aren't growing.
[01:20:55] Helen Wada: And seeing that from those above because they're, it's all about me unless about the [01:21:00] team. And that's a whole nother conversation that how the human approach, how the coaching approach can help to turn your best revenue generators into. Commercial champions, coach, you know, commercial coaching champions to, to bring the team with them.
[01:21:16] Final Thoughts and Tips[01:21:16] Final Thoughts and Tips
[01:21:16] Helen Wada: I am conscious of time. We could talk about this all day. Before we go, I always like to ask our guests, one top tip and one question for the listeners to reflect on for themselves. Based upon the conversation, where would you start? What would be your top tip?
[01:21:34] Jim Bloomfield: Top tip would be to be intentional, so, no, having no plan, no structure, no measure of success will not will not get you to where you want to be. So I would say to people, even if it's small it's better than nothing. So. Make yourself a commitment, focus on executing on that, whatever that might be.
[01:21:55] Jim Bloomfield: You know, whether it is something around going to networking events or putting out [01:22:00] thought leadership on social media or, you know, something of that nature. But something's better than nothing and make sure it's consistent. And the question, the que well, the question I like to use when I'm coaching is what do you want to be known for?
[01:22:15] Jim Bloomfield: and it's always interesting to, to sort of then work from the answer there. But for me, you know, as a, as an addition there, I would be encouraging people to think about what are you already really good at and how can you leverage that further in a sales setting.
[01:22:31] Jim Bloomfield: You know, we've all got development needs.
[01:22:33] Jim Bloomfield: Those development needs are hard to develop, otherwise we'd have action them already. Right. So at the. If you want a quick win, think about a strength and how you can really amplify it in the sales or business development world.
[01:22:44] Helen Wada: Yeah. absolutely. And I think it's tapping into what's important to you and what you enjoy. Right.
[01:22:50] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah.
[01:22:51] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah.
[01:22:51] Helen Wada: And build on that rather than trying to do something that is against. What we want to be doing and where we wanna be going. 'cause then it's a [01:23:00] different question to answer. I,
[01:23:02] Jim Bloomfield: If it's a strength, it's probably something you enjoy already. It's familiar, it's comfortable, you know how to do it. So squeezing a bit more from that is gonna be a lot easier.
[01:23:12] Helen Wada: I think, you know, I mean, we're both running our own businesses, but if, whether you're in a big organization or a small organization, your brand is you. And I think in the world that we're operating in today, it's so important that you work, you know, focus on. What is your brand? Who are, what are you known for? And that evolves and changes as well. I think. I think sometimes we don't stop and think about who am I now versus who I was five, 10 years ago.
[01:23:39] Jim Bloomfield: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that, that point around self-reflection and sort of regularly pausing and taking time out of the day job to, you know, really think about. You know, where you've got to, where you want to be in future. And as you say how that might have changed over time, that's that's probably a whole nother topic, isn't it?
[01:23:58] Helen Wada: Well, it's a good point to, to [01:24:00] leave us on. Jim, thank you so much for joining the show. It's really great to have you on and look forward to seeing you again soon.
[01:24:07] Jim Bloomfield: Marvelous. I look forward to reading the book. Thanks Helen. Thanks for having me. I.