Ep49: Leading with Humanity - Exploring Shadows at Work with Steven D’Souza
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In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada sits down with author, educator, and leadership expert Steven D’Souza to explore what it truly means to lead with humanity. Drawing on decades of work in leadership development and reflective practice, Steven shares how acknowledging the light and shadow within ourselves can transform how we lead, connect, and grow.
Together, Helen and Steven discuss how vulnerability strengthens leadership, why embracing uncertainty is vital for human-centred growth, and how leaders can cultivate cultures that value self-awareness over perfection. It’s a rich, reflective conversation that reminds us, leadership isn’t about having all the answers, but about being willing to look inward and lead with compassion and courage.
Topics Discussed:
The light and shadow sides of leadership
Human-centred growth through reflection and awareness
Leading with authenticity and vulnerability
How embracing humanity builds trust in teams
Reframing success through self-awareness and connection
Timestamps:
00:00 – 02:30 | Introduction and setting the tone: why leading with humanity matters
02:31 – 08:45 | Steven on the “light and shadow” of leadership
08:46 – 14:20 | Understanding how self-awareness transforms leadership
14:21 – 20:40 | The power of vulnerability and reflective practice
20:41 – 27:15 | Reframing success through a human-centred lens
27:16 – 33:10 | Helen and Steven on the courage to lead authentically
33:11 – End | Final reflections: embracing the shadow to grow
About the Steven D’Souza:
Learn more about Steven on his website
Follow @steven-d-souza on LinkedIn
Steven D’Souza is an award-winning educator, executive coach and best-selling author. He is a Senior Partner at Korn Ferry and has a multifaceted life story, from training as a priest to building a portfolio career. He has worked with leaders at AMEX, Eurostar, Goldman Sachs, the Financial Times and PwC. He has delivered talks and workshops for the United Nations ILO, TEDx, On Purpose and Hub Connections. In addition to his corporate work, Steven has held academic roles as Associate Professor at IE Business School, Associate Fellow at Oxford’s Said Business School, and Guest Faculty at Harvard Kennedy School. He is the author of five books, including Made in Britain, which was personally presented to HRH King Charles; Not Knowing, which won the CMI Management Book of the Year prize; and Brilliant Networking which is translated in a dozen languages and was featured in the Independent’s ‘Success at Work’ series.
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Ep49 - Leading with Humanity: Exploring the Light and Shadow of Leadership with Steven D’Souza
[00:00:00]
[00:00:29] Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:29] Helen Wada: Well, welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Steven Dusa on the show this morning. Steven is an award-winning educator, executive coach, and bestselling author. He's a senior partner at Korn Ferry and is a multifaceted life story from trainees, a priest, to building a portfolio career.
[00:00:52] Steven has held academic roles as an associate professor at IE. Business School in Madrid, associate Fellow at Oxford Side [00:01:00] Business School and guest faculty at Harvard Kennedy School. You've just published your six book, Steven, and that's what brings us here today. Shadows At Work is your latest material.
[00:01:11] Welcome to the show.
[00:01:13] Steven D’Souza: Thank you, Helen. It's an honor to be speaking with you this morning and to be discussing this topic with your audience.
[00:01:20] Helen Wada: Super. And yeah.
[00:01:22] Steven Dusa's Background and Career Journey
[00:01:22] Helen Wada: I've given a lit the audience a little bit of your professional career and your academic career, but tell us a little bit more about who Steven is. We're talking about being human, so
[00:01:31] who is
[00:01:31] Steven D’Souza: Ally. Obviously I'm based in Riyadh, in Saudi Arabia, Helen. I've been here for two years, but culturally my mother is from Goa. In the southwest coast of India and my father was born in Kenya, so something about my cultural roots. And I grew up in England. You can tell from my dol sit tones. I lived in London. I worked in Madrid for the Spanish business school. You mentioned.
[00:01:53] I lived a couple of years in Romania. To experience a different cultural environment and currently [00:02:00] living now in Riyadh for the past few years. And professionally, I think you touched on the diversity in the career.
[00:02:06] I trained initially as a priest. I worked in hospitality, a group HR role across 10 hotels. I've worked in investment banking and retail banking in an NGO. And mostly an FMCG company in global leadership roles. So cutting across industries and geographies. So on the side I've been written writing books, as you mentioned.
[00:02:30] The first was about positive role models from British black and minority ethnic communities. 'cause I found there was always an outcry of a lack of positive role models for young. Black boys in particular, mostly entertainment or sport, but not
[00:02:44] from diverse industries.
[00:02:46] So I knew that wasn't the case for me, that they are there, but their stories were not told. So that book was sponsored free for Schools in Britain, a book on networking called Brilliant Networking about how to grow your professional network for [00:03:00] personal and career success, a trilogy. You mentioned not knowing which one, the CMI Management book of the year, which is about the art of turning uncertainty into opportunity not doing, which was about the art of effortless action and not being, which is about the second half of life really the art of self transformation when we go through transition around midlife and we think about our careers in a very different way, and I'm glad to be speaking to you about the new book called Shadows at Work. Which is about harnessing our dark site and unlocking our leadership potential.
[00:03:35] Helen Wada: Fascinating. And, and just listening to you there, Stephen the richness of the diversity in that breadth and when you talk about. Of the not knowing the midlife career, dealing with uncertainty, you know. Those are topics that in today's world, in 2025 are more important than ever. And whilst some of those may have been written, you know, 15, 20 years ago, actually, they're more important now than ever.
[00:03:59] I was at an [00:04:00] event yesterday and it. You know, there's a lot of networking there and I talk about a lot of networking in what I do in terms of, you know, winning work, building new contacts and relationships. And it's not always easy for people.
[00:04:12] And I think we sometimes have to tap into really who we are, what's important to us.
[00:04:16] Discussing 'Shadows At Work'
[00:04:16] Helen Wada: Which maybe brings my me to my first question around what does being human at work mean to you? You've had all this rich experience, but if we start the podcast, what does being human at work mean to you?
[00:04:29] Steven D’Souza: I think I'd like to uns that question, Helen, with a line. From a reto written by a composer who, who died at age of 93 in 98. His name was Sam Michael Tibit. And he composed a libretto called a Child of Our Time, and he wrote this piece of music in the beginning of the aftermath of really the start of the World War II and the assassination of a German who.
[00:04:55] Really the event spurred Crystal Nat, which was a very destructive [00:05:00] night of violence, and he came to realization that political activism was insufficient in order to bring peace in a potis society, that we needed to work on our psychology and we needed to work on our humanity. And his line was, I would know my shadow and my light. Then at last I shall be whole. So for me, being human at work means being conscious of our shadow and our light. And by doing so I think, and I argue in the book, that we're able to be better humans and better leaders and more effective in terms of individuals and also organizations.
[00:05:42] Helen Wada: and I love how that comes at it from a different place, Steven, you know, and it is, it's about what I talk about when I'm working with senior leaders. It's about knowing our strengths. So I talk about the human, how you show up is the h in the mnemonic, the framework
[00:05:57] That was that light who we really are,
[00:05:59] but [00:06:00] actually being mindful of the shadows.
[00:06:02] And that's what we're gonna dive into a little bit more now
[00:06:05] in terms of. We all have shadows. How can they be helpful and how do they distract and what ultimately do we do about it?
[00:06:12] The Importance of Understanding Shadows in Leadership
[00:06:12] Helen Wada: Why did you write the book? Tell me Shadows at Work.
[00:06:15] Steven D’Souza: I think there's always something personal, right? As an author
[00:06:18] you know, too, your own life story.
[00:06:21] Personal and Professional Experiences Shaping the Book
[00:06:21] Steven D’Souza: And so for me there was something personal, professional, and societal the personal side. Helen, you touched on the, my biography. I was trained initially as a priest. I always had the question in my mind, what does it mean to live a good life? And, you know, growing up as a capital. Catholic, it was like a PhD in guilt and shame, but also equally in forgiveness, adding compassion. And so it was interesting experience for me. 18 years old, I worked in an Alzheimer's disease unit for a year. I worked in a homeless shelter underground in Westminster for the second year.
[00:06:56] Taught in the east end of Glasgow, quite in quite a rough [00:07:00] area called the scheme, worked in a mental hospital, but different kinds of people, so it could really. Get to see the breadth of a human experience. What does it mean to be human in different, in particularly working with maybe vulnerable or fragile and communities as well? I didn't go pursue that but instead I left there and went to university, but I was fortunate to be sponsored by the home office and whereas my friends got internships on you know, wonderful banks or consulting companies. You mentioned a few. In our conversation prior I was sponsored by the prison service on a leadership program and I worked within Felton young offenders with boys who had been convicted of murder, rape, and robbery, a more serious crime. The
[00:07:45] section 53, 2, and. These boys, even though they'd done heinous acts most of them were so immature. They were unable to shave. Most of them were illiterate. They couldn't read or write. Most [00:08:00] of them were fathers themselves with their own children and working with them. Confounded any simplistic notions of what I had around what is good? What is bad, but, and that simplicity also was questioned, was sim when I went into corporate life, you know, I worked, I've worked with a range of companies across different industries and the paradox is not lost on me how I can work in some companies that might be considered pariah companies, yet they have such a positive and engaged culture, and yet some in NGOs where I've never. Being in such toxic cultures. And then the question of leaders themselves, having coached hundreds of leaders, seeing, you know, the challenges that leaders face in terms of their own behavior. We've seen public cases like the, let's say the Coldplay concert and this, the C
[00:08:53] Helen Wada: Oh goodness.
[00:08:55] Steven D’Souza: Or the CEO resigning for, but also derailment [00:09:00] happens much. Lower as well in the organization. Like Gartner Research said that between 50 to 70% of executives derail within the first 18 months of a new role. So it's not only the celebrities that we tend to focus on in the media, but that are, as you mentioned, our strengths and also can derail us. In any phase of our career. So I became interested in what causes derailment, what causes leaders to fail at the individual level, but also to create cultures that might be toxic and lead to consequences both financially, but also in human fatality costs. And lastly, I was curious about this topic from a societal perspective. I'd come across this idea of I think it was Mac hin Edwin Lau, who talked about a dark. Mode shift, like we have a dark mode on our phone where everything goes black. They talk about how the previous decade was almost like a light mode where we felt that we were progressing, we progressing in environmental law, [00:10:00] we are progressing in globalization, but now it seems like we're going into the dark, that there's more polarization than ever.
[00:10:06] There's. Less cross party collaboration, more division the experience and more conflict. Even if people argue, you know, it's less conflict than the past, we might feel more anxious now and more precarious now. So we're entering into this. Almost like phase of the dark and the, I don't see that as negative.
[00:10:27] I see the dark as offering the space of transformation and change. So imagine the baby in the womb, the seed in the earth. We think that nothing is happening, but the darkness is actually the space of transformation. But, and also the place that we can lead from. So part of my work in, but not knowing Trilogy as well, is. Acknowledging that we can lead from the dark and that it's not something negative, but if we confront it, we can use it as a space for transformation and for [00:11:00] growth in that stillness, in that silence, in that in that unseen really, or the unseen, the unmeasurable. So that's why I wrote this book, to bring more attention to what we don't look at. So where we tend to emphasize in leadership positive psychology, appreciative inquiry, we tend to look at strengths, but we don't necessarily tend to spend a lot of time looking at our own shadows, becoming aware of how we defensive, how do we derail, how might we be projecting how might we be more embodied. And what are we sacrificing potentially in a shadow life or a shadow career? So I just wanted to put more of that balance in humanity. So it comes back to the earlier Michael tidbit. I sure know my shadow. I would know my shadow and my light. Then so shall I be whole. So that kind of I think there was a importance of that in the world of coaching or the leadership development.
[00:11:58] Helen Wada: listening to that, you know, the [00:12:00] shadow, the dark, what are we tapping into? I mean that, you know, beautifully aligns with what I talk about with human wise that will be out next year. But how to lead from within and sell with confidence. We were talking about, well before we press record on the session today, you know, the work.
[00:12:14] That I did through the Transformational Coaching Diploma, that really took my coaching from a, what I would call a, you know, a fairly basic level, good level, but into that inner self. And the, one of the biggest shifts for me during that time was the time and space I gave myself, because I invested the time.
[00:12:34] Commitment to do that, but to tapping into who we really are
[00:12:38] and what that means in terms of how we show up. And like you talk about it as the shadow, the dark, but it's actually exploring who we are really within ourselves and how we can use that to, to shape what we do and how we can support and lead others in this complex, crazy world that we find ourselves in.
[00:12:58] You talk about. [00:13:00] Shadow. Why does it matter? Why does it matter in the world of work? What is that sort of, you know, we talked about the why, but why does this shadow matter so much in what you are seeing in the world of work?
[00:13:11] Steven D’Souza: Probably to look at if we didn't look at the shadow. What are the consequences of, and why is it important to leaders? So. Thinking about the average leader listening to this podcast to think about, let's imagine that in a leadership role that always you have an impact on those that are under your span of influence in some way.
[00:13:32] And traditionally we've called this the leadership shadow and we've thought about it in terms of, you know, what influence that the leader has on the culture. Of the organization and we know that leadership sets that tone. So leadership drives shapes, culture and culture drives behavior. And that can have enormous consequences.
[00:13:51] Whether that leader sends messages of what behavior is tolerated and celebrated and what behavior is not allowed. So [00:14:00] one is that if we are paying serious attention to culture and we're paying serious attention to leadership, we need to be aware of what is the message we're sending and not. In not just consciously but unconsciously or unintentionally that might have an impact. So this is fundamental. I think the second element is around derailment. We talked about it individually, but also derailment can happen at the cultural level with companies, let's say, having practices that might beeth. That might result in damaging behavior, not only for individuals, but for customers and consumers. So give a simple example. Is the Air Boeing, air Max, the case of incited that? No, it was very much a culture of scapegoating, a culture of blame, a culture of toxicity where speed and profit were valued over safety. So it's how, and that consequence of that wasn't just. Billions lost and, you know, the CEO and man resigning, [00:15:00] it was of the loss of 346 lives because of that culture that was created by those in leadership positions. So there's very much a huge consequence to not paying attention to our shadow. So what I would advocate is that as leaders, we have a responsibility to not only be aware, to your point around self-awareness about what we do well. Being able to interrogate and to listen to and explore what is it that we might be doing that might cause, you know, de be detriment to not only ourselves, but also to those that we lead and our organizations.
[00:15:37] That's why I think this is a vital topic and we know that working for a toxic leader. Most people resign because of this. And fortunately you know, that is, isn't a sparse phenomena. I think I read research that said, you know, one in one in five CEOs, senior leaders tend to have high degrees in narciss system. [00:16:00] In terms of psychopathic behavior, even though that's debatable, it varies from 3.5 to 12% in senior leaders compared to 1% in the general population. So it has an o outsized impact in terms of understanding leadership and also the impact on the rest of the organization.
[00:16:19] Helen Wada: Agree more with what you're saying, Steven. And it's for me, again, as I listen to that and you know, it links very much to that commercial coaching approach that I, I take with what I do. Because on the one hand, you know, my third. Years experience. You describe it that those commercial pressures, the focus on the top and the bottom line, almost above all else.
[00:16:39] For example, but then actually we know that to create the workplaces that are healthy, where the cultures are good for everybody, not just for a few, we need to take a much more human centered approach to what we do and that requires people to step back and have time to [00:17:00] look at this, to explore this.
[00:17:05] Steven D’Souza: No, it's. You are right. We're not encouraged to reflect on these particular, I think much of leadership development, telling your experience, Helen tends to be more transactional, tends to be, you know, how do I do this? How do I influence out? But it doesn't necessarily give the space and the time for the leader to think about more deeply about their own story, how that might be acting out and being impacting on, on their own behavior. So I think there's.
[00:17:32] The Role of Reflection and Reflexivity in Leadership
[00:17:32] Steven D’Souza: One of the critical things I always encourage is this idea of strategic pausing or taking the space to pause, and it doesn't need to be long. Often we have this myth, you know, you need to spend an hour on your own, but it could be even a few minutes to think about this in a metaphor.
[00:17:49] Think about the game of basketball, and the coach calls a timeout. It may just be a few seconds, but in that timeout. The whole direction of the [00:18:00] clay could change immediately after that timeout. So it's only called, it's taking that ability to pause strategically and to reflect or to think. I love the idea of reflexivity, which means reflection in.
[00:18:13] Helen Wada: Like that word. Tell me more. Sorry I've jumped in there, but.
[00:18:16] Steven D’Souza: It's rather than reflecting post something, it's reflecting in the midst of activity, reflexivity. And I think developing that skill and helping managers encouraging reflexivity, I think would be a valuable skill, particularly recognizing shadow, shadow up, because we'll talk more about this, but it's often the catching yourself. In that process of maybe being defensive, maybe doing something that, and then being able to change or that is the critical skill. So fully agree with you. We don't really encourage reflection as much as we could. And the power of pausing, I think is a vital skill in being able to work with our shadow.
[00:18:59] Helen Wada: It really [00:19:00] is. It's a strategic skill. I, when I run group coaching works, also working with a number of executives together and, you know, we take three to five minutes from journey. Point of view. I mean, you know, the power of actually pen to paper, which again, is not used often enough. I mean, even my teenage boys are using laptops all the time to do their work and you know, they come to write an essay and they could hardly do it because they don't actually write much these days.
[00:19:24] It's all on laptop,
[00:19:25] But the power of reflective thoughts. Just with a pen and paper. It's remarkable
[00:19:31] and can ignite thinking where people are very often stuck. So, absolutely I love those words and I, you know, I think that's something that all the listeners should, you know, just try it because until you start to embed these sorts of behaviors.
[00:19:48] Your daily business. It doesn't have to be every day, but actually take time on a Friday afternoon. What are your reflections and reflections in the moment you say, stop in a meeting, it's not going very [00:20:00] well. Your awareness is there. How many people just plow on
[00:20:04] for a meeting that's not going anywhere? I mean, the amount of wasted hours people have,
[00:20:09] whereas actually you get that awareness and you pause, you check in.
[00:20:13] Do we have a timeout? Are we heading in the right direction? There's just a couple of key questions.
[00:20:18] Steven D’Souza: Yes,
[00:20:19] these pauses or the phrase I like to use Helen, is they're negative capabilities. And I dunno if you come across that phrase, but negative capability was a term that was described by the poet John Keats in, in a letter Brothers George Thomas. And he described it as the ability to. With mystery, uncertainty and doubt without irritable reaching of fact and reason. And what he was doing, he was describing this rather than focusing only on what we can measure, only what is seen, how can we make space for what is immeasurable, what is unseen and what is not valued. And a simple example, we tend to value speaking [00:21:00] more than listening. We tend to value activity more than reflection at the point we just made. So developing. That capacity or capabilities that we tend to overlook can be critical, that are in the shadow, can be critical. So much of the trilogy in the not knowing, not doing, not being and in this are really negative capabilities. Not to say that they're negative as in detrimental, but they're negative as in the shadow. They're negative as in, you know, they're balancing and they're balancing what isn't focused on to make us better and more effective. Leaders. So, you know, I would encourage listeners to say, you know, what is. Being emphasized, therefore, what is in the shadow? One of my, I trained as a Gestalt psychotherapist and one of my colleagues used to say, if you want to know what's in the shadow of a company, look at what they value, and then that will tell you what could be potentially the shadow.
[00:21:57] You know, Enron had integrity on the [00:22:00] wall
[00:22:00] carved in stone. Yet, you know, was that really something that was valued or what was in the shadow behavior that might not support that particular value? So it's about looking at it from both sides and being curious what's being disappeared and what is, what, is there no voice to talk about or to explore or experiment
[00:22:22] Helen Wada: I love that word, curiosity. I mean, as a coach, it something that you know is embedded within us, but
[00:22:27] again, that's something that we've almost lost something. I was out in the street and shop the other day, and you hear the child saying to the mom from the fish chair, why mommy, why? You know? And it just made me think, goodness, somehow we've kind of lost that ability to get curious, you know, thinking about that shadow, diving a bit deeper.
[00:22:47] You talk
[00:22:47] Steven D’Souza: Good point. Like, I just feel on the questions. You know, a child at school, if they ask more than a couple of questions, they're thought to have like a tension deficit disorder, you know, they're thought to be hyperactive. Why are they keeping an asking? You [00:23:00] know, we should only have at that, that they might be put on readily or another medication and that.
[00:23:04] We're at work, you know, equally if we ask more than one or two questions, you know, it's not necessarily seen as positive. So that ability to ask questions, I think is a mark of a great leader, but not only to ask. Basic questions, ask conflictual questions. They might be saying, you know, things like, what is your part?
[00:23:24] What is my part in this mess? You know, rather than just looking at the more surface level questions. So, no, I love the real care quote. You know, learn to live and learn to love the questions themselves rather than necessarily seeking for immediate answers. But I think you're right, Helen, Matt. Kind of emphasis on curiosity and listening. I often in not knowing, we have a study by University of Rochester at their medical school. So doctors interrupt their patients with a diagnosis after an average of only 23 seconds. And if they waited only six more seconds, the patient will reveal something [00:24:00] that would change the diagnosis. So, you know, how quickly do we make a judgment? Do we step out of our curiosity or our not knowing as it were to enclose that space? And can we remain a bit longer in, in that darkness, in that not knowing to allow something new to emerge. So I think that's also in the power of questions and things that might be in the shadow that are not, you know, not in our conscious minds that we can work with.
[00:24:30] Helen Wada: that very much links into sort of the coaching approach that I advocate in human wise, which, because these are the skills that you and I will have as bread, as butter, as executive coaches, but those questions. Holding. You know what else? It might be a simple question, but actually it gives people that space to think, that space, to breathe that space to explore a little bit more.
[00:24:56] Well, tell me about the four lens framework in the book. Tell me, because you look at this [00:25:00] through a power of four lenses, tell me a little bit more about that.
[00:25:02] Steven D’Souza: The shadow often that, for those not familiar with the concept, it sounds a bit obscure, but initially it was a psychological concept and if you look at any, most books on the shadow, they tend to be. Based on the, on psychology and particularly the work of the psychologist, Carl Young, who described the shadow, almost like a repository of all that is repressed, denied or suppressed in our unconscious.
[00:25:28] Understanding the Shadow Archetype
[00:25:28] Steven D’Souza: And it's almost like an archetype for what that is. So an example might be, as a child you were taught don't be selfish. And, you know, share your toys and you know, at, you learned to put on a persona to maybe be a people pleaser, maybe to share things, but that selfishness that you were told, wasn't acceptable. You put away into your psyche. So unconscious of it, but it's there. Don't be selfish and that can impact your behavior as an adult. It might mean that you [00:26:00] over please you, people please. You find it hard to hold boundaries as a leader, so it's not dead as it were. There's an American essayist, William Kinner. He said the past is. Not dead. It's not even, you know, it's not even past, it still affects you in the present. So that idea of the shadow is, what is it in our past that was never maybe prohibited or we were told was unacceptable to feel, to express as a child, maybe by our parents, by our schooling, by our society, but. In a way still impacts us in the present. And it isn't only negative things. You know, Jung talked about this idea of the golden shadow, meaning equally our gifts and our creativity could also be suppressed. So we might have been told don't be a show off, for example. And so we've learned that to express ourselves confidently.
[00:26:51] It's a no-no. You know, always hold yourself. And culturally, that's also a message like in, in Asia, countries we're told don't show laughter in a [00:27:00] positive way. And so they cover their mouth or the, so there's also other culturally as well as individually ways that we are told what was acceptable, not acceptable, but that leaks out in terms of our modern leadership.
[00:27:13] So that's predominantly what. The shadow was.
[00:27:16] Biological Influences on Behavior
[00:27:27] Steven D’Souza: Now the shadow tends to be very individualistic, and what I've tried to do in the book is to look at it through other lenses. So for example, biology and the work of Robert Spolsky he's an evolution biologist shows that our behavior is. Less driven by our psychology, but by our genes, by our chemistry, by our cultural heritage, by our DNA. So he looks at evolution and how that can also impact on behavior from elevated stress hormones to simple things like tiredness. And how our magilla can get hijacked to drive out what we would consider shadow behavior or behavior that may not be pro-social. So equally, we need to be [00:28:00] attentive to ourselves as embodied human beings, not just psychological human beings. In fact, you know, there's a lot of I think research around the vagus nerve, our nerve system saying, you know, we see and interact in the world through the health of our nerve system. So how do we account for this? And I think some organizations, particularly aa for example, they have, you know, heart. Don't do anything when you are hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. Equally, you know, in organizations, you know, we tend to privilege maybe extreme hours hustle culture always being on, you know, back toback meetings and we tend to lionize, you know, entrepreneurs who may sleep at the office like Heco seemed to be working 20 and that actually leads to unproductive.
[00:28:49] Shadow kinds of behavior. So attending to the physiology I see as critical in the biology as embodied human beings.
[00:28:58] Cultural Shadows in Organizations
[00:29:02] Steven D’Souza: The third lens was the cultural lens. If we think about the individual shadow is the me that I don't see. The cultural shadow is the. We don't see, you know, it's what are we not aware of as a, as an organization, as a team, as a society that still impacts us. I remember in my early career, I taught at a business school, and one of my colleagues, his name was Gareth Jones, he wrote a book called, why Should Anyone Be Led by You? And he.
[00:29:27] Helen Wada: no, that one.
[00:29:28] Steven D’Souza: yeah, he starts the executives and he was teaching. Imagine that somebody starts in your company, it's their first day, and I want you to throw out the induction handbook and tell them what do you really need to do to be successful around here? So what are the informal unwritten rules? And so they would say things like, you know, always leave your jacket on the chair. So it looks like you've just. Popped out, but you haven't left work. Always make sure you walk around busy, so it looks like you are, you know, you are focused and you are got much to do.
[00:29:59] Make sure you don't [00:30:00] get on the wrong side of Mr. Brown because his Mr. Brown's wife is led to the CEO and it's nothing in an organizational chart, but these are the unconscious cultural rules around. What do, what does it take to, to work around be successful? And equally, cultures can have huge impacts.
[00:30:18] So we know the work on amms and around psychological safety, around people being able to speak up share what they feel and see is going wrong in organizations can have huge impacts on their crisis and products and on impact on customers and employees. So, you know, part of the shadow is looking at what is the shadow cultural behavior, and that's normally driven by things like incentives that might encourage individualism driven by things like hyper competition where rather than collaboration driven by, you know, all the kinds of things that. Tend to maybe be vague goals, which encourage rule breaking. So [00:31:00] different things. There's a lovely book called The Dark Pattern, which looks at the shadow in almost like the toxic organizations that have failed. But I think, you know, we need to go beyond the individual. In the shadow to really include and understand the shadowing culture and what are the dark sides of that, that result in scapegoating, that result in persecuting whistleblowers that result in, you know, making poor choices that can lead to the loss of lives. So. Cultural element is critical.
[00:31:32] Exploring the Spiritual Lens
[00:31:38] Steven D’Souza: And the last element I looked at is the spiritual lens, which is really around meaning and and purpose. So the shadow not being something necessarily negative, but being a period of reflection. So normally around midlife we get, we tend to reexamine the choices we made in earlier life, and maybe we base them around the need for security or around the need for prestige. Which become less important at this stage per perhaps, [00:32:00] and we tend to think about what is it that we might regret. What is the life that we have not lived and that offers an opportunity to reexamine those areas, not trying to relive the past, but to see what we can bring into the present that might help us have a more richer future honoring the desires of the past. So I look at movies like Past Life by Celine Song, or The Perfect Days By Win Vendors, which reexamine what do we think about work? What do we think about? Capitalism, what do we think about our definition of success and what might be the shadow that hasn't been serviced in our own lives? To give you a specific example, I trained, I had applied many times to be a school teacher in the uk. And I got accepted and even by Cambridge university and I didn't become a teacher. I think I was more concerned. I saw that it wasn't as well paid. I
[00:32:53] had more security then. But also the political interference with the focus on testing rather
[00:32:59] [00:33:00] than. Deep learning, which is what I was interested in, but that desire to impact and to serve young people never really went away. Now you have TEACH First, which is aimed at university graduates having teaching experience. But I think Lucy EY from the ft started an organization aimed at. Later career professionals called TEACH now. So they've had their professional lives, let's say at KPMG, like yourself, and they've got real world experience.
[00:33:29] How can they go back now and let's say share and teach in inner city schools and giving more practical, grounded education to young children? So, you know, in my question is, so how can I live out that teaching in a way that impacts on young people? So my, probably the way I'm exploring it now is looking at how can I bring negative capabilities, the kind of capabilities that are overlooked into the world of education to schools and colleges.
[00:33:55] So something I am holding that was in my [00:34:00] shadow career, as it were, or my shadow life. So those are the four lenses, Helen, and I'm sure they're not distinct. They're all interrelated. You can't separate them. Ar artificially. But I think it allows for a more richer view of the topic of shadow rather than just focusing on individuals and let's just say focusing on psychology or our internal world, but to look at our social world, to look at our physiological world and also our meaning and our purpose.
[00:34:30] Helen Wada: You know, and I love what you've done and particularly, you know, as a midlife woman, you know, just approaching a big birth, maybe won't say what number, but there's a one coming up. But that really spoke to me about how we can use our shadow for the next generation of queer. I've come up to 50, there's a lot of people my sort of, you know.
[00:34:48] Relatively senior levels in organizations that are looking back at their career and thinking, well, what now? What do I do? And actually. It can be quite a period of stress
[00:34:59] for [00:35:00] people. You have these grand ideas when you come and you know your kid and whatever,
[00:35:03] and then you go, oh, I'm here and I've got kids and family and I've still got a mortgage.
[00:35:07] And,
[00:35:07] but actually the way that you speak about it is tapping into, goes back to tapping into your inner self. And looking forward to say what is important to me? How can I make a difference? And there's a whole new chapter in a, none of us are the timing anytime soon. Certainly for my brain. I don't want to be sat drinking coffee the whole time.
[00:35:25] You know, it's really important. So I think it's lovely the way that, that you can conclude that. And we think about our shadow as we look forward is really super, but. But taking you back a bit. '
[00:35:36] Practical Steps for Leaders
[00:35:50] Helen Wada: cause I'd love to unpick, you know, there's a lot of leaders that listen to this podcast, A lot of people coming up through organizations that, quite frankly, see some of these challenging cultures, whether we like it or not that, that we've both spoken about, how can we take what.
[00:35:52] You speak about in the book about tapping into our shadow. You know, say I'm a leader of an organization, I get this, [00:36:00] I want us to explore ourselves in more detail behind what's there, the create the cultures. Where do I start? Because I have a diary that is back to back. I have shareholders or partners that are pressing me for greater revenue.
[00:36:17] How do we incorporate this on a practical level? Maybe there's two or three things just to start
[00:36:22] that leaders can do to take your work and drive it into the businesses that we've been talking about.
[00:36:30] Steven D’Souza: I'd say, it's a good question. I'd say to start by taking the topic seriously. You know, and then we talked about the financial impact, and we talked about the personal impact of derailment but also bad choices that can put a company at risk. So it's a serious topic. It's not something that is, you know, a nice to do.
[00:36:47] It's a have to do in order to be a good leader, let's say start with self. You know, to do the self work around your own projections, your own defenses, your own derailers, [00:37:00] and your own how that impacts on your leadership team. So I would begin with that self-inquiry, but I would say that it could be something that could be.
[00:37:08] Taught and in organizations at all levels. So how often have you, as a leader, when you are in a company taught about projection? You know, about receiving projection or giving projection, and the impact of that on teams. How often were you taught about your own defenses or helped to explore? What your own defenses are, and to move from defensiveness to curiosity, how to deal with conflict in a more healthy way, not normally, or it tends to be very piecemeal, but not sufficient. How often are we taught about derailers? You know, about power, about money? About sex. You know, often it's like a, an hour in a secondary school, yet how many people have derailed because we tend to think of ourselves as minds not embodied, cre embodied humans at work. So allowing a safe space in which leaders can [00:38:00] explore these topics of, you know, projection defenses to rais and embodiment, I think would be healthy and. Positive start and to begin those conversations, at least in in forums that would allow a more deeper discussion. So to go beyond the transactional and to allow the space for this I don't see Helen, to your point, many organizations doing this. So I think, you know, this is the opportunity here if we're gonna be serious about creating a better. Quality of leader and a better and change in organizations to your point I think you said leadership begins one conversation at a time along those lines, but I truly believe that this kind of work probably does as well. And if we create the space for this kind of conversation, even if it's done in a safe way with let's say lunch or learns or some form of development, I think it can have a huge and tremendous impact both on individuals, leaders [00:39:00] personally, but also on teams. Managers becoming better because they're less defensive, they're less likely to scapegoat, less likely to project. So I think it can have huge indications, but it's also my challenge, I think. And then how do I bring this? Out into the world in a way that leaders can use. I'll be interested in your thoughts on that actually. So, you know, I don't have the answers, but I think writing the book was my first attempt
[00:39:27] and then to bring that to life in a way that they can engage and as you said. Benefit in a positive way, and not just individually, but systemically as well. You know, what are the policies that might be encouraging shadow behavior or rewards, incentives. The ways that we set up the organization how, and to look at these, almost like a shadow audit
[00:39:50] in terms of improving and making sure that we're reducing the risk of shadow light behavior.
[00:39:58] Helen Wada: And I, you know, I [00:40:00] love all that. I think it is, it's that one conversation at a time. Coming back to what do I think, you know, with the 30 years commercial experience, for me, ultimately we have to be able to link this type of behavior to growth. And a commercial and sustainable success for the business and for ourselves and for me, the two can be intellect.
[00:40:22] And that's where I get really excited because when I was a global sales leader, having never wanted to be in sales,
[00:40:28] people would say to me, why are you good at what you do?
[00:40:30] Steven D’Souza: Yes.
[00:40:31] Helen Wada: can you create new relationships with people that you've never met before? How can you create a commercial opportunity for us from nothing?
[00:40:39] How can that translate into new work and revenue for the business?
[00:40:44] Steven D’Souza: Right.
[00:40:45] Helen Wada: Didn't know the answer. You. I un picked I, except the reason that I can do that. Is a lot to do with the fact that I've trained as a coach. It comes back to these skills. It comes back to your ability to create a safe space for the partners, [00:41:00] for your potential clients to have real and deep conversations.
[00:41:04] How you show up creates a space for others to share with you,
[00:41:08] Steven D’Souza: Yes.
[00:41:09] Helen Wada: and for me, it's taking those and making them real. So what we do is we back into. The need to look at your shadow.
[00:41:18] We back into the commercial need to do that.
[00:41:21] 'cause if we can do that, then actually we can connect better with our partners. We can give them the next better with our customers.
[00:41:28] And that for me is where we can start to shift the dial
[00:41:31] to bring human centered leadership
[00:41:34] and what you talk about in looking at who we are to the world. That's where I get excited.
[00:41:38] Steven D’Souza: It's really interesting. I think it's such a, an interesting area and complex because many of the the world sees leaders who are not embracing their shadow, you know, who might be artistic and might be, and they're succeeding. Ellen. You know, they're doing well. They're privileged by society and or they're in positions of power. [00:42:00] So it's almost like that paradox, you know, what is the, what are we rewarding in society and what is it coming back to your question, you know, and what is it to be human in the workplace, and, and often it's like, living with that paradox to see maybe some people who you know, are narcissistic, are manipulative, are ve do succeed and they do. But the cost is, do we want all our organizations and our leaders to be that way? And what is the consequence, not just for them, you know, the individuals, but what. How do others who live with them who have to be led by them, what is the impact on them? And I think then we get at the real cost.
[00:42:41] You know, people leaving toxic organizations or toxic bosses, and we see the cost to organizations, and we talked about some of the cases, but from Wells Fargo to the post office to. When things aren't handled well, where there is scapegoating, where there isn't, the cost is huge financially, [00:43:00] emotionally, and with our consumers. So I think you're right in helping leaders figure out what is the cost, not only to them. But to others, and being cognizant of that can encourage good shadow work, but it's, I can't pretend it's an easy subject to engage with.
[00:43:16] Final Reflections and Takeaways
[00:43:25] Steven D’Souza: It's not an attractive subject. So most people, you know, they've rather not look at their shadow because it is a, it is confronting, but it's also an act of psychological maturity, I think, to be able to look at our dark as well as our light. And I think if. The listeners on this podcast who are, you know, interested in, in, in their development. I think it's an invitation to do that. And my argument is that they'll, it will make them a much more fulfilled and and better leader.
[00:43:49] Helen Wada: I think, you know, the more of us that are out there banging the drum, so to speak and having the conversations and showing the light the way that. Tapping into who we [00:44:00] really are and how we show up is the start of everything for us to understand others, get curious and look towards a more human working world and for society, for the generations that are coming up behind us, and those people that are in a less privileged position right now.
[00:44:18] I mean, my, my big ambition, I'd love to take my work into schools and, you know, schools of all. Shapes and sizes where people coming into the workplace that don't have access to the communities or connections that maybe you and I do. Because, you know, you get graduates in and people, they say, I can't have a conversation because they're on the phones the whole time.
[00:44:39] You know, we've almost even over 30 years, we've gone back. We need to invest in this more Steven and, you know, bringing your work into the world is a great place to start. We could talk for hours. I've loved this conversation, but I am conscious of time. I tend to ask the guests two things at the end.
[00:44:58] What is your sort of top [00:45:00] tip? You know, we've spoken sort of 35, 40 minutes. What would be the one top tip from you thinking about this topic and what is the question? We talked a lot about the importance of questions, but what is the question that you would leave listeners with as they reflect on the conversation you and I have just had today?
[00:45:18] Steven D’Souza: I, I think the tip would be to around the con context of triggers. You know, it's this idea that, you know, it's when we notice ourselves reacting or responding in a disproportionate way to the situation. That's an opportunity to explore what else might be going on beneath the surface. So the tip is when listeners, or when you find yourself reacting, let's say you find yourself becoming a rate.
[00:45:49] Let's say you notice something happening in your body that seems to be irritating to you or annoying to you, well, why could that person do that? Or why do, and you feel you want to react [00:46:00] in a defensive way? I'd say use that as an invitation to become curious, to move from defense to curiosity because. That is the opportunity for discovery and for shadow work. And, you know, in, in a society that we want to remove all triggers, we're actually taking away our opportunity for growth. So, paradoxically we're making it less safe because we're not able to confront our own shadows and our own projections and our own defense. So use that opportunity that you notice next. To ask questions, you know, what else might be going on, what might be happening in my story let alone for that other individual. So that will be the tip here. And the question is how can I be a bit more kinder and compassionate to myself? No shadows were caused by splitting off parts of ourselves that were thought to be [00:47:00] unacceptable.
[00:47:00] You know, and we act them out and they're not distinct from us. They are parts of us. So by noticing them, we don't tend to bring more judgment, you know, why am I acting this way? But bringing more compassion and paradoxically again, that actually helps heal those parts of ourselves and bring them into a healthy relationship.
[00:47:24] So it's, how can I be a bit more kinder? I'm compassionate to myself. So, you know, shadow work as a whole, you know, if I doesn't leave us more enlightened or it doesn't leave us as, but it leaves us with a greater acceptance of the dark and then therefore it leads us with more compassion, more empathy for ourselves and for others.
[00:47:46] Helen Wada: Wonderful. Thank you Steven. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. I already want to go back and listen to our conversation because I think we've covered so much and I think. [00:48:00] So many interesting points there to reflect on. And I think my reflection, if I can offer one at the end is taking time, making time to do this work because I believe in it.
[00:48:13] I've seen the benefit of doing it, as have you and my hope is that others can. Explore our shadows to see the light, to take time, to dive deeper, to understand what lies within, so that we can be confident in ourselves and our passions and our dreams to shape the future of this world.
[00:48:35] So thank you for coming on the show.
[00:48:37] Steven D’Souza: My pleasure. Thanks Helen.
[00:48:39]