Ep41: Reimagining Success Through Kindness, Connection, and Core Human Skills with Natalie Semmens
Unlock the commercial power of kindness and transform your workplace culture with practical, research-backed insights on why human connection is the real engine of business success. In this episode, Human Wise host Helen Wada sits down with leadership expert and workplace kindness champion Natalie Semmes, who shares her journey from leading major technology programs at top firms to founding a company devoted to bringing kindness into the heart of organizations.
Discover how acts of compassion drive engagement, retention, and profitability—supported by data, memorable stories, and actionable strategies. Natalie reveals the often-overlooked link between kindness and bottom-line results, why traditional “hard-nosed” business mindsets are outdated, and how even small gestures can spark transformational change for teams and leaders.
Packed with inspiration for leaders, HR professionals, and anyone eager to future-proof their organization, this episode delivers tangible steps you can take today to nurture a kinder, more resilient workforce—without losing sight of commercial goals. Tune in and learn how harnessing the human advantage isn’t just good for people, but great for business.
Topics Discussed:
Kindness in workplace leadership
Commercial value of human connection
Employee engagement and business performance
Building trust in client relationships
Impact of technology on human skills
Timestamps:
00:00 Cancer Twice: Career Achievements vs. Life Uncertainty
05:24 Kindness-Led Healthcare Business Launch
07:24 "Human Evolution and Social Connection"
10:06 "The Human Advantage"
14:50 Seeing the Bigger Picture
18:44 "The Economics of Kindness"
21:40 Coaching Builds Trust in Business
24:49 Bridging Technology and Human Connection
28:09 Accenture's Strategic Investment in Skills
32:38 "Building Trust with Clients"
34:02 "Fresh Perspectives Elevate Trust"
39:38 "Power of Small Acts"
41:14 "Setting Boundaries and Priorities"
About Natalie Semmes
Follow @natalie-semmes on LinkedIn
Natalie Semmes is a tech leader turned kindness pioneer, whose work bridges cutting-edge innovation in kindness with human-centred tech transformation. With a career spanning IBM, Barclays, and KPMG, Natalie has led the design and delivery of technology that has positively impacted millions and even won an award from the UK Prime Minister for automating benefit payments.
Her experience as a cancer survivor reshaped Natalie’s perspective on what truly matters at work, and in life. That led her to launch Elfkare, a company on a mission to help organisations and their employees to thrive and prosper through the power of kindness.
Natalie is the architect of the Kindness Value Framework, bringing together global research, behavioural science, and lived experience to help leaders reconnect with purpose, performance, and each other.
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Ep41: Natalie Semmes Human Wise Podcast
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Guest Welcome
Helen Wada: Hello and welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Natalie Sims with me. Natalie and I were former colleagues many years ago. But our paths have now actually cost more since we've both been focusing on the human side of leadership. And Natalie is an absolute advocate for kindness in the workplace.
Not just kindness for kindness sake, but actually kindness because it makes commercial sense and really [00:01:00] delighted to have you here. Natalie, do you want to introduce yourself and give the audience a flavor of who you are? Tell us a little bit about your backstory, what brought you here today, and why your passion on kindness
Natalie Semmes: Absolutely. And thanks so much for having me, Helen. This is really great. And, you know, we have sort of worked together over the years, haven't we, in, in lots of different guises and shapes and forms.
Natalie's Professional Journey
Natalie Semmes: I guess as you know, my, my background is I've been in technology my whole life you know, leading big programs, implementing large technology platforms for global organizations.
And I worked with IBM and Barclays and KPMG for many years where I was a partner. And, you know, I really. Love driving value for organizations. That's something that for me, really, you know, helped, you know, gave me this inspiration to get up in the morning and do something amazing for, you know, for people and make a difference to people's.
I think everybody wants to make a difference. And you know, I. I was lucky enough to [00:02:00] be part of some fantastic, you know, ma massive implementations like delivering huge financial crime platforms for large financial services companies. But also I led the automation of benefit payments here in the uk and I got an award from the Prime Minister for doing that, which was amazing.
And and I guess all of this was fantastic and I was like, you know, on such a high of, you know, being able to do such great things for other people. But my life did come to a standstill actually because I was diagnosed with cancer twice, and that was a pretty traumatic event for me as you can imagine.
And also a period of real uncertainty. And you know, I. At the time I had nowhere to turn really. And all the accomplish accomplishments I had in my career didn't really mean anything. When you are in a position where you don't know if you're going to be alive in the next few months, you know, so this is you know, really?
Helen Wada: world stuff, right? This is, you know, [00:03:00] straight to the heart of human. Nature, human behavior, human
Natalie Semmes: Yeah. And this is where you sort of have to come to terms, right? I have to come to terms with what does this mean, you know, and how do I get through this? Right? And it was really just having you know, I. People around me who were there to support me during that time made an incredible difference.
And in particular, there was one, one event that made a huge difference to me, which was that I received suddenly a package in the mail. And it was from my boyfriend's ex-wife Debs, who I had never met before. And and why would I have necessarily, and I was like, okay, what's this package?
And I opened it and it was a lovely card and you know, and some massage therapy kind of gift package. And I was like, oh my gosh. I, this is like completely unexpected. And it's something that I would never [00:04:00] have expected somebody. Like Debs to actually reach out to me on, in this way.
But she said in, in her note that her mom had gone through cancer and she can only imagine what I was going through. And she wanted be to be there to support me and
Helen Wada: What a wonderful human being. What a wonderful human being.
Natalie Semmes: Yeah. And it was that, that, that was a moment of epiphany for me, really kind of just sort of crystallized in my mind, oh my gosh, the most important thing in life. Are other people, right? And other people showing up for each other. And with kindness, right? Because that was, and that really showed me that you know, kindness isn't necessarily about grand gestures.
It's, it can be just a small package in the mail, right? It can be just a note, right? It can be a, you know, a just a moment of connection with somebody else, right? A human connection. And that was what really led me to. Go on this path of basically transforming my [00:05:00] entire life, right? To
Helen Wada: And you are looking fabulous by, you know, and it is so wonderful to see you thriving the other side of this Natalie, and, you know, coming into your true passion, your true. What you're meant to be doing. So tell us a little bit more, tell us a little bit about health care, what you're up to, and then
we can dive into sort of kindness at work.
Natalie Semmes: everything went well.
Launching Elf Care
Natalie Semmes: I was, I fully recovered and and then I launched this company Elf Care, so left KPMG. I launched Elf Care and our mission is to help organizations and their people to thrive and prosper through the power of kindness. Because I really see that this is a true differentiator and a strategic advantage in organizations and and you know, have pulled together tremendous amounts of research and thought leadership around this topic really to help organizations in today's world.
I guess lead in the better way to do business. Right? I guess there's lots of ways to do business and [00:06:00] we can we see lots of different examples, but I think we need more role models in the world who actually lead with kindness.
Helen Wada: And you were seeing, you know, the recent reports throughout in terms of, you know, the level of engagement. Or lack of, you know, it, unfortunately, it's going in the opposite direction. You know, the reason for Gallup and so forth, it's going the wrong way. And so having people like yourself, you know, the human advantage and others, many others out there advocating that this is, you know, the only way really to be doing business.
And we're gonna tap into a little bit that in a moment. Thank you and I always kick off these podcasts with a question, but you know, it's linked to the kindness, but what does being human at work mean to you? Nasal,
Natalie Semmes: Yeah, and I really. Like that question, Helen, because I think it sort of cuts at the heart of everything, doesn't it? What does human at work really mean? And, you know, we often talk about humans in terms of [00:07:00] resources, in terms of you know, full-time equivalents or in terms of, you know, KPIs and all of these type of things.
You know, business speak, right? But I don't think we often talk about humans at work in terms of what we really are. Right.
The Importance of Human Connection
Natalie Semmes: And, you know, we have evolved right over millions of years to be what we today. No and I'm bringing this up because I actually had a conversation recently with a brilliant professor at Oxford University called professor Robin Dunbar and his.
Life has been dedicated to evolutionary anthropology and what he's been studying, which is really interesting, is not just human evolution from the PO point of view of, you know, how did we evolve to be standing up? How did we evolve to, you know, create fire or tools or, you know, use tools. But from a social perspective, social evolution, and what his research shows is that as humans, our brains [00:08:00] are wired to thrive in an environment where you have real connection with other humans.
Okay. So it isn't just a matter of we all think, well, you know. We should be prosocial because you know, we live in a society. But actually that's, that is how our brains have evolved and we evolved to help each other out, you know, to hunt together to.
Helen Wada: Yeah, a little bit. But that comes back to the business context, doesn't it? Because actually we talk about growing businesses, building new ideas, innovation, but ultimately it's, you are from a technology background, but absolutely still advocating this need for deep human connection and understanding of others.
Natalie Semmes: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think that, you know. For, and just going back to your question, what does it mean to be human at work?
Redefining Business Success
Natalie Semmes: Um, I I really think that the business of bus, the business of business is humans, right? And somebody who put it really [00:09:00] well was a couple of weeks ago, I was lucky enough to meet David Tate, who's the co-founder of Virgin Atlantic.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Natalie Semmes: and I was able to ask him, so, you know what? What was the kind of key thing that meant that you, in Virgin Atlantic, you know, creating that brand and that business from scratch in a very competitive market? What was your secret to success? And he said that. Always remembering that our product is our people.
Right? That is what it's just about our people and I think Helen, the name of your podcast, the Human Advantage, that's what it's all about.
Helen Wada: Yeah, thank you. And it really is, and I'm, as you know, equally passionate about the human that. I if we are putting our people first, if we are thinking about others, you know, it's about, actually first it's about understanding ourselves. Natalie, I think, you know, what you've been through actually what I've been through in also moving out and setting up the human advantage.
You know, [00:10:00] I talk about the human framework that we've created and I'll talk about more in the book when it's launched next year. But you know, actually we do need to take time to understand who we are and how we show up because actually. We're so often in this kind of rollercoaster of a race to some kind of finish line, but the finish line keeps moving.
You know, as soon as you set some goals, the goals will extend it. And actually for people taking time to be kind to themselves as well as kind to others, and I think that's also an important distinction. I was writing about that the other day and it's like, actually no. What is it about your, you caring and leadership?
Actually today I was caring for myself I know I find it even as a coach, I find it hard to stop and say, no, actually today is about me. Or this afternoon is about putting my own oxygen mask on and realizing that I need to breathe after some really busy weeks.
Natalie Semmes: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Helen. [00:11:00] I mean, you know, I fundamentally. I think as leaders we always think about, you know, we've got all of these competing demands, we have these targets to hit. We the world is moving faster than ever before. I mean, you know, you know, and the landscape is very uncertain, right?
The digital political uncertainty and all of that, and all of that leads to overwhelm, doesn't it? And all of that can lead us to feel under tremendous pressure personally. At work in the world and we don't perform well when we are completely flat out, you know, we burn out. When we're flat out, we burn out.
And I think that this point is really important that we need to. Take that time to step back and actually be kind to ourselves, to refuel ourselves so that we are able then to care for others so we can show up for our people. Right. And for our clients, it's not you know, I think there, there's only so much as humans that we can [00:12:00] give before we need to refuel.
And I think it, and this is where I think we often sort of. Don't set the boundaries we need. Right? We all need to understand where these boundaries need to be for it, and they're different for each person. Right? Um, and it's also about having that level of self-awareness. Helen, I think it's, it did take me a number of years to recognize when am I going to, you know, pushing too hard to the point where it's actually going to be detrimental to my own wellbeing and my own health.
Right. And you need to learn what that balance is. We are not you know, as humans, we are not, you know, super human, right? So we are human.
Helen Wada: not, and we're not silicon robots, right? We are. We are. People with you.
Natalie Semmes: yeah, exactly. And so for me it's, it know, how do we think about, what we're doing with our lives in the long run. Right? So this is [00:13:00] a long game that we're playing. It's not. It shouldn't be only about, I mean, yes, business has been ultra focused and more and more so on short term results.
Right. Trying to, you know, what are we doing this week, this month, this quarter, right. And this is all great. We should measure, you know, 'cause what measure gets done, what gets measured, gets done. But but I think that can be to the detriment of the long term, sustainable future of of our own wellbeing, of our role and our career of of us as leaders in a business.
And then the long-term success of our business. And I think that's what we should all be most interested in. Right. I feel like we've all seen these scenarios where we, you know, people get asked to do, go above and beyond and above and beyond running on adrenaline, right? But you can only do that for so long.
I.
Helen Wada: And then it falls away. But it brings us to a good point because [00:14:00] you are right. You know, there are a lot of people, there are a lot of organizations out there that are running to drill right now. That are running to drill and they're saying, I get it. I hear it, but how do I make the business case for this creating space, creating time.
And I know you've done a lot of research and some work that I've done in writing the book as well, but for me it's about we are not seeing the wood for the trees if. We're really, you know, if you're just linear and if you're just focusing on the next number or the next result, it's a bit like, you know, we talk about sales and business development.
If you are solely focused on one outcome, you are not actually taking a step back and saying, what's going on for this person? Who are they as an individual? What's important to them personally? What's [00:15:00] important to them professionally? What's going on in the wider organization? Our failure to take a step back, particularly when the world is changing before ice, right?
I mean, week to week, month to month, we, if we are not creating the space, we are running a serious risk that actually we're making the wrong decisions and those wrong decisions will impact the business rather than looking at sustainable success where you need to be for the long term.
Natalie Semmes: Yeah. I mean, absolutely Helen. I think we see that what I guess the interesting kind of I guess con controversial thing, if you wanna call it that, is that the more that we advance as society and with technology and with ai, and we think that these things are gonna drive a massive productivity improvements for businesses and for the economies, but yet.
We're at a time where productivity is at an all time low, interestingly, and so is employee engagement. And especially in [00:16:00] Europe and within Europe, in the uk we're probably one of the, one of the lowest right, of employee engagement. And you've gotta ask yourself why is that right? What has happened here?
Something is not right. Something's broken in the way that we. Have been trained to historically manage our businesses. Right. And I'll tell you one thing that I think is sort of the, one of the culprits of this the myth that we need to be hard nosed and driven to short term goals and therefore kindness has no space in business.
That, that's sort of the myth that is out there. Right. And and I think one of the culprits of that is. The whole body of work around economics. Okay, so I did, I studied econometrics did my MBA and my dissertation in econometrics. And the utility models, the traditional kenson utility models are all about utility being how we can maximize our own personal wealth with the least possible [00:17:00] effort.
Okay? But there is no space in these models for the wellbeing of others. So these models are all about self-interest being very selfish. Okay. And driving value by being selfish. But what we've seen, and this is with the research that. That I've been doing, and I know you've been doing as well, is that actually going back to how we've evolved as social beings.
As humans, right? Utility isn't just about the individual. Actually the best utility is by working together, right? And collaboration. And the research that is now being done. 'cause previously there wasn't research done in this space around, well, what difference does it make if a leader is kind or if a business is acting in a kind way.
Right? We can now see that conclusively right there. There is huge amounts of data that shows that actually kind businesses outperform, unkind businesses. So Baringa did some [00:18:00] research on the economics of kindness, and they show that kind businesses outperform unkind businesses by 34% EBITDA over a 10 year period, which is incredible.
And what we can also see is that employee engagement, 75% of what drives employee engagement is related to kindness. Kindness being. Clarity, connection, care, and recognition. Those four pillars are at the heart of what is employee engagement. And if you get that right, the, this data shows across thousands of companies that you can increase profitability by 17%, reduce absenteeism by 58%.
You can get much better retention. You can you know, you can drive. Better safety records. I mean, all kinds of things are really incredible that you can do if you tap into what was typically called or traditionally called the softer side of, you know, things [00:19:00] wishy-washy
Helen Wada: We need to rewrite it. You know, I think I'm on a mission to say, you know, it's not, it's no longer soft skills, right? It's essential human skills, not just for the workplace, but for the way in which we need to connect with each other, create communities to collaborate. And, you know, you talked about Robin Dunbar but getting back to what humanity is about, getting back to supporting each other, you know, it is not dog eat dog, it's actually what can we do?
There is a space in the world for almost every single one of us. we looking at, you know, who we are, what our value is, and having the real conversations and. Getting cures. It is the same thing from that, that coaching perspective. When I set up a human advantage, you know, when people said, well, why are you good at what you do?
You know, we talk about sales, particularly in professional services, law and engineering. You know, there's that myth of, you know, the best [00:20:00] salespeople of those people that are just pushy, getting out there and really don't have a care for anybody but their numbers ultimately, you know, their quarterly numbers.
But actually, and I never wanted to be in sales. I ended up in a global cloud role, and I was building relationships and I was connecting teams together.
The Power of Coaching Skills in Business
Helen Wada: And people said, well, why are you good at what you do? And I didn't know because I'd never wanted to be in sales. Right. This was okay. And I looked at it and because I trained as a coach and I trained in 2015, I was like, do you know what?
It's those skills that are linked to your kindness skills, that sense of curiosity, sense of focusing on other people. It's creating psychological safety, you know, with coaching clients because they have to open up to you your but it's the same when you are dealing in business, creating a space where people trust you, where they're sure if people don't trust you, they won't tell you what's going on. So how on [00:21:00] earth can you begin to help them solve whatever problem you might think you can help them with me. That might be advertising. It might be recruitment, it might be consultancy, it could be anything.
Core Skills for the Future
Natalie Semmes: But Yeah, but I mean, you were talking about you know, the skills that we need and that we Absolutely, these should be called core skills, not soft skills, human skills. The core skills, right. And even the most recent World Economic Forum. Uh. Report on the future of Jobs 2025 showed that, you know, they did an analysis of what are the skills that people need to thrive in, you know, going into the future to 2030.
Okay. It's hard to go farther than that in
Helen Wada: It's really hard. I was talking to somebody the other day and I said, who, who are we still doing five year plans? 'cause I'm not sure we could actually work out why the next year's going, let alone two to five years.
Natalie Semmes: But what they showed was, you know, amongst the skills that you might definitely [00:22:00] expect to be on the kind of future skills needed. You know, things like you know, critical thinking and analytics and AI skills and those types of things. But one third of the skills related to human connection and kindness,
Helen Wada: Absolutely cu isn't curiosity one of those?
Natalie Semmes: Yes.
Helen Wada: Cu you know, and that's fundamentally, that's, it's not about telling, it's about getting curious. It's about, because I think it, none of us know the answers individually. Right. You know, if we do know the answers individually, quite frankly, a robot will give it to us more quickly than you or I could ever get there.
I think we all know that's the sort of maybe, but do we know how we're gonna solve these increasingly complex, multidisciplinary, multi geographical problems? We can't do it without stepping back and asking questions. And is one of the things we do with all our group coaching work is, it's not about what people can [00:23:00] learn through the experience, but it's going back to.
Building some of these, what I call coaching, core coaching skills, but they're building the muscles
Natalie Semmes: Yeah.
Helen Wada: that, that we need to build because they've kind of gone, you know, it's sad to say, but they're not there as much as we would want 'em to be there.
Natalie Semmes: they're not. And, then we wonder, okay, but what, why is it that, for example, our investments in transformation don't actually yield the right benefits that we're looking for? Right. What is it that isn't connecting quite right. And it is the fact that, you know, we think we think that we're gonna wave a magic wand and invest in technology and it's gonna, you know.
Make our business more successful. We, what we don't do is we then don't tie in what is that human dimension to get our people connect with our people on a authentic level and understand what is it that they [00:24:00] personally need to feel fulfilled. Right? And e everybody's different, right?
But if we can connect to what makes our people tick. On an individual basis and align that with what we're trying to achieve as an organization and our mission. Right. Get them to see that connection. It's like, you know, anything is possible. Anything is possible.
Helen Wada: it's transformational and you are right. It's not about what you find your connection to it, it's about helping them to understand what their connection is to it. Because where you come from is different from where I come from, is different from, you know, John or Jane or Joe or whoever it may be.
Um, what's stopping us right? What is, because again, you know, I've had conversations this week where the investment dollars, oh, not investment dollars, investment hands, whatever, into technology right now is enormous. But [00:25:00] yet I'm talking to heads of learning, heads of talent going, oh, but I've had my budget cut for my investment in people.
I've had my budget cut 'cause it's still seen as a cost rather than. An opportunity to give people the skills that actually could make them successful commercially. What's stopping us? Right? You talk to a number of people. What are you hearing in the marketplace?
Natalie Semmes: Yeah. Well, okay, so that's a really good question, Helen.
Investment in Learning and Development
Natalie Semmes: And you're right, I am also seeing that people you know, a lot of businesses are having their. Learning and development budgets cut and, you know, and sometimes, you know, in a massive way, right? I have seen these and I've heard it.
But likewise, I also attended this week a session which was hosted by Forbes the Forbes 100 and and the. Great companies to work kind of, so they published their rankings of the great companies to work on a, on an annual [00:26:00] basis. And they had two CEOs at this, at at their event.
And one was Julie Sweet, the CEO of Accenture, and the other was Michael Bas Bastion, who's the CEO of Delta Airlines at, you know. Both of them. So, so what makes a great place to work? Right. Julie very much said at Accenture they have invested, they have not only invested heavily in learning and development, but they doubled down on that, right?
So they, they have invested. Over a billion dollars in learning and development. And not only that, what I thought was really fascinating was that it's not just about investment, you know, per se. It's about investing in the right skills that are gonna help your people feel confident that they can not just survive but thrive in today's world, right?
And things are changing really fast, and that means. Giving them those tools and skills [00:27:00] really fast. Right. So she gave an example that was, I thought, pretty inspiring that you know, when all of the tariff kind of changes were introduced were announced a few weeks ago. Right. And nobody knew what that was gonna do.
She immediately got an external economist who specialized in tariffs. To come in and create a whole, you know, curriculum for all of their managing directors globally. So thousands of managing directors were educated and trained in what the impact of tariffs were gonna be for their clients. Okay.
Within a week. Within a week of the announcement, the training had already had that. Okay. And you can imagine how they felt, you know, the, everybody who received this training felt in terms of. Able to go out into the world, talk to their clients, talk to their people, give them the confidence that we have tools to deal with what is facing us today.
Right? And that's what [00:28:00] you need, right? You need to help your people recognize what it is that your people need and give them those tools, right? If it, it's almost like you are. Withholding, like, you know, you're tying their hands behind their back if you're not investing in in, in learning and development today because things are changing so fast.
Helen Wada: And it's the skills. It's not only that insight, and you're right, that speed of decision making becomes so important. People, you can only do that if you know, have the resilience, if you have the confidence, if you know that you are at your core, who you are and what you bring. And it's helping people to, you know, whether it's through coaching, whether it's through different groups, connection, mentorship, but actually giving them space to try things. Giving them space to, to learn, try out, okay, it doesn't work, but so what? You know, it's not about planning for six months and then trying it, and then [00:29:00] it, it's like, no, we've gotta keep the speed up here, but you need to, the agility, I think is the word that I was looking for, you know, in terms of how do we support people to be agile, to own ownership, you know, each of what they're doing and accountability.
Again, I come back to the coaching parallel. 'cause with coaching, the accountability is generally all with the clients that we work with. And it's the same for me actually. We are looking at, and I talk about a commercial coaching culture. You know, for me what gets in the way of create, we've talked about coaching culture for decades, you know, it's.
We know coaching is good. We know individual coaching supports, executives and so forth. It's expanding out beyond that, you know, with some AI tools and things, which is great, but for certain things. But actually, you know, leaders, as a coach, we talk about that these are the skills that you need as leaders, but actually [00:30:00] they're the skills that you need to be out there in the marketplace with your customers.
They're no longer just leadership skills for me. They're essential commercial skills. Enable us to build sustainable businesses. And that's sustainable on two fronts, right? Sustainable. Taking the business. It's commercially sustainable because we need to be doing what's right for the medium and the long term, not just the short term.
It's also sustainable for our people because we can't have this flat out burnout like cycle. It just doesn't work anymore.
Building Sustainable Business Relationships
Natalie Semmes: Yeah, but I mean, going back to your point about it doesn't work for our clients either, right? So, so where, whereas maybe historically there, there has been this kind of. for lack of a better word, sort of macho version of, you know, just go out there and kill your targets and, you know, this kind of language, right?
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Natalie Semmes: Whereas really, you know, we need to be [00:31:00] looking at building long-term sustainable relationships with our clients, right? And that requires at its heart trust, right? And trust requires having that real human connection. Showing your clients that you actually care about them, you know, as people, right?
And that you're listening to what their needs are and reacting to those accordingly, right? And being willing to challenge them on the on, on what their vision is of the future
Helen Wada: a absolutely because people want value add you, you ha it goes back to that psychological safety, that sort of container of trust.
Natalie Semmes: yes.
Helen Wada: 'cause you, if you can create a space where you feel that you can challenge safely, it's not about breaking the relationship. It's about challenging for the good of them, ultimately.
Natalie Semmes: And to challenge them in a way that brings them clarity, right? So I think we bring, we are able to bring you know, often it's [00:32:00] hard. To when you're in the midst of something yourself, to see the wood for the trees as we were talking about and, you know, as an external service provider or supplier, we're able to kind of bring that kind of slightly different perspective and help them see that, you know. Things are not always, you know, what they look like on the ground, right? You can look, take the higher level view and things can look very differently. And I think these components of trust are the same components around kindness, right? So if we can bring and I also think Helen, and this was another thing that I've also seen, is that. As you were saying earlier about never wanting to have gone into sales. Right. And I totally understand that. 'cause that wasn't something that I had set out in my career either to do. But I think it's because it's perceived and it still has this perception of being a very mechanistic thing, right?
That you do sales, right? You get sales, you whatever. It's and I'd like [00:33:00] to think of it now more as this thing that you build, right? Because and rather than what we call CRM client relationship management, I'd like to call it client kindness management. How do we be kind to our clients, be there for them, you know, show them, you know, well, here are the things that we can do together.
Right? How do we and you know, how do we actually. Understand at a deep and meaningful level what it is that their business needs that we could help them with and that we could succeed together with. Right? So, so that's where you build a real trusting partnership with your clients if you can show that you are there for them at the human level, right. And so for me, it's not about return on investment it's about return on integrity. Let's find what is the return on ROI, the return on integrity, and that's where kindness pays.
Helen Wada: love it. I love it. And I think [00:34:00] that is true. So, so much through, even in, you know, we talk about long-term trust relationships, there's evidence that say, particularly with advisor procurement and so forth, that actually, you know, our relationships are sticky as they used to be. You see people moving around from.
Business to business and, but actually for me, that only exacerbates the need to be more human. Because if you are needing to create, look at creating new partnerships, looking at creating new, you need to be able to get deep really quickly because you can't necessarily rely on those longer term trusted relationships.
Hopefully you do if you are creating that right focus and you can build that. But if you are needing to, for your business perspective, go out there. You need to get deep really quickly with these people to really understand what's going on for them, because actually if you are not there, others will be
The Importance of Kindness in Leadership
Natalie Semmes: Yeah and actually Helen and I think. Talking about that, [00:35:00] what's even, I think, more critical is that we help the next generation,
Helen Wada: Oh, absolutely.
Natalie Semmes: learn these skills too. Because they are starting from a much lower baseline in terms of having lived through the pandemic at a critical time of their you know, education or early career.
Being out in the world now. They don't necessarily have the skills, even the basic
Helen Wada: Yeah, you're right.
Natalie Semmes: are informing these human connections and therefore, you know, they avoid it. Right? There, there isn't a I have a client who has talked to me about this, you know, about in her team there is, you know, in and let's say the Gen Z kind of, staff members, there's a bit of a reticence to go out there and meet with people. You know, they're, there's a fear. There's a fear of exposing their vulnerability as humans to others because they haven't learned how to do this
Helen Wada: Or they've learned it through behind a screen, right? Because they've started jobs that are behind a screen. They [00:36:00] get comfortable in their dining room, or you, if they're lucky, if not their bedroom. And so I, I hear the same all the time, you know?
Natalie Semmes: And the other interesting fact there is that, you know, well, and we all then can talk about our digital presence and, you know, we are here speaking digitally, Helen, but there is a very huge danger around these digital interactions that they become much more superficial and transactional in nature.
You know, they can, right? Because. We're here now, and the minute we disconnect from this call, we're no longer in the room with each other. We can't walk out of the room together and chat about something else or how your family doing or whatever.
Helen Wada: I will give you a virtual hug and say, have a fabulous weekend.
Natalie Semmes: yeah and you know, that's that, that's a real disadvantage I think of these. And therefore we need to be so much more intentional about how we show up. In our lives and in the workplace, not just for ourselves, but for each other, that we [00:37:00] reach out to others that we actually think about how can I do something that's going to be, you know, kind to somebody else, right?
Because these small acts of kin is, whether it is give you a hug or say thank you so much for, you know, inviting me to this podcast or, you know, just asking somebody, how are you actually feeling today? 'cause you looked a bit low, right? That just showing that you care has, can not just make the difference in that person's demeanor, right?
In that moment, you can make their, your weak. You can, you could change the course of their career and their lives with one small conversation. It really can happen. You know, and we need to think about that. We have each of us, all of us have this tremendous impact and superpower within us to transform each other.
Right. And to change the world. We really can, through the [00:38:00] way we reach out to each other and we just don't tap into it. And you talked earlier about it being like a muscle, it's a muscle we're not using. Yeah.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Natalie Semmes: And if we think about our arsenal of tools we have as leaders, you know, kindness is probably the cheapest tool you could have, right?
It doesn't cost anything. It doesn't cost anything to do. It just requires us as leaders to have the backbone to role model it and to be brave enough to say to people, this is how we're going to lead and this is how we're gonna show up for each other and be there for each other.
Helen Wada: And I think the only thing that I would build on that is what it needs is time. And it needs people to set their own boundaries and I think that is the ownership on. Every one of us to really ask ourselves, you know, am I setting the right boundaries for me, for others, for the organization?
Because unless we take time, make [00:39:00] time to create time, these little things, we all know, these little things that actually don't take very long can sometimes build up to be quite a big thing. Whereas actually it's about focus, it's about priorities. And it's about being human. Natalie, we could talk for the rest of today on this topic.
I know there's so much richness and it has been really wonderful to have you on the show. We've been trying to get the date in for a while, so I'm delighted you've been able to make it work. Before I let you go I always ask the guests for maybe sort of one top tip or a couple of tips for them to think about. And then a good coach loves a good question. What question would you ask listeners to reflect on having listened to our conversation today?
Natalie Semmes: Well that, yeah, so I would say ask yourself what does kindness mean for you and your business and. [00:40:00] yourself, can you just practice one small act of kindness today? Today you can. You've got the rest of the day. Today, you're listening to this podcast. Go out there and do something that's going to make a difference to somebody else and see what impact it has on them and feel what impact it has on you, and you will be surprised.
Helen Wada: Love it. Thank you so much, Natalie. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on human wise. I hope the listeners have enjoyed it as much as I have. Look forward to seeing you for an in-person hug very soon.
Natalie Semmes: Oh, I'd love that. Thank you Helen, and thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing and I have been, you know, very excited too to be part of this podcast. I love your podcast series, so thank you so much.
Helen Wada: Thank you. Have a brilliant weekend. As you soon,
Natalie Semmes: Okay, see you soon. Bye.