Ep40: The Power of Vulnerability and Values in Leadership with Jason Cotta
What does it take to be an authentic leader who drives results without losing your humanity? In this energizing episode, we unlock actionable leadership insights for today’s fast-paced, people-focused workplace. Our guest, Jason Cotta—newly appointed CEO of Arcturus Group—shares how he rose from shop floor to the boardroom, why emotional intelligence is your superpower in business, and how the next generation is reshaping the rules of work-life balance.
Explore the real challenges of balancing commercial success with employee wellbeing, the crucial role of vulnerability and trust in leading teams, and why courage, curiosity, and humility are essential for sustainable business growth—whether you’re facing tough markets, rapid change, or the everyday pressures of leadership.
Discover practical strategies to build influence, handle power dynamics, and create partnerships rooted in respect and transparency. If you’re ready to lead with purpose and empower others to realize their full potential, this conversation is packed with wisdom and motivation to help you—and your team—thrive.
Topics Discussed:
Human-centered leadership strategies
Integrating commercial and people priorities
Navigating power dynamics at work
Building trust through authentic communication
Supporting sustainable business growth
Timestamps:
00:00 Career Growth at Tesco
05:04 Mentorship's Role in Career Progression
07:53 Modern Leadership: Embrace Work-Life Balance
10:36 The Pitfalls of Financial-Driven Decisions
16:52 Values, Self-Understanding, and Leadership
20:01 Prioritizing Job Protection
23:24 "Trust Through Vulnerability in Leadership"
24:21 Collaborative Supplier Relationships
30:53 Navigating Power Dynamics in Leadership
33:58 Confronting Bullies with Courage
36:28 "Cultivating Courage and Self-Worth"
39:20 "Courageous Leadership: Embracing Whistleblowing"
43:29 Courageous and Considerate Leadership
45:06 "Finding Motivational Purpose"
About Jason Cotta
Follow @jason-cotta on LinkedIn
Jason is now the Group CEO of Arcturus Group (owned by TriSpan Private Equity) the holding company for a group of Asian restaurants comprising Pho, Rosa's Thai and Mowgli and with ambitious plans to grow the businesses in the UK and internationally and add further brands to the platform.
Prior to this Jason was the CEO of itsu, Ole & Steen an artisanal bakery company with it's heartland in Denmark and international presence in the UK and New York. His career has been mainly in hospitality and has spanned Managing Director of Costa Coffee, Operations Director in Travelodge hotels and other operational roles in Tesco, TGI Fridays and Care UK.
Jason left school at 16 and has come up from the shopfloor starting out at Tesco and as such has always believed in the power and potential of the operating teams in all businesses to deliver exceptional results when they are treated with the dignity and respect they deserve. There is no barrier between valuing and rewarding your teams well and a hard-nosed drive for profitability and commercial success, they have to work together to achieve the greatest results.
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Ep40: The Power of Vulnerability and Values in Leadership with Jason Cotta
Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:00]
Helen Wada: Hello and welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Jason Kotter with me this afternoon. Welcome, Jason. It feels like the first day of summer.
Jason Cotta: It does beautiful die.
Helen Wada: Probably the one and only. And then that'll be it for the rest of the year. but really super to have you on the show.
And also today, I know we'll publish in it in a few weeks, but on the day of your announcement as the new group, CEO of our tourist group, owned by Trian Private Equity the holding company for a group of Asian restaurants, many of which will be familiar to our listeners, comprising. Faux Thai, which I both frequent on a regular basis, and moley, which is a new one to me.
So I need to find that one on the map. ambitious plan plans to grow the business in the UK and internationally and add further brands to the platform. So really delighted to have you here. Such a rich commercial experience [00:01:00] starting, you know, with Costa Coffee Operations Director and the travel lodge. Operational roles in Tescos, TGI, Friday's, K uk, and then CEO of ISU and Oing. Goodness. Are there any more brands on the High Street that we eat from that you haven't been part of? Jason?
Jason Cotta: I'm sure there are some, but I like to think I've worked for some pretty good ones along the way as well, so, yeah. Pretty good.
Helen Wada: know what it is? Absolutely brilliant to have you on the show. And you know, I've given everybody a little bit of potted history about your career history, but tell us a bit more about who was Jason Cotter?
Jason Cotta: So, thank you and thank you for the invite for being on as well. It's a real pleasure to do it.
Leadership Philosophy and Personal Growth
Jason Cotta: And I think the, sort of the subject matter that you talk about in terms of that sort of being human in leadership and human in business is something that's kind of close to my heart because I think my, I think I have an untypical background in terms of how I came into leadership because I left school when I was 16.
I have no qualifications. And I've kind of come up literally from the shop floor. And I think that teaches you [00:02:00] an awful lot about. Yourself and how you sort of retain that sense of self in sense of what's actually important when you come up through the ranks of a business, which is not to denigrate anyone, that didn't come up my route, but I think it gives you a unique perspective on leadership and on remaining true to yourself.
Helen Wada: I, and that's super important. Tell us a little bit more about that and your journey. When did you decide, was there a moment that you thought, you know what, actually I'm loving this and I want to move through the ranks, and or did it evolve? I.
Jason Cotta: Yeah, I mean, I think, a little bit of both. I guess, I mean, I think, you know, way, way back when I was a teenager many years ago then, you know, just starting out, I think just the fact of being at work was something I enjoyed because I just, I enjoy the fact that if you work hard and you try and do your best, then you typically get recognized for doing it.
And having not had a glorious academic history, it was kind of, it was refreshing to be in a place where people thought I was pretty good at it. So, I think that kind of was a bit of a [00:03:00] self-reinforcing behavior for a while. And then I got onto te, you know, back then Tesco ran an amazing, and I'm sure they still do an amazing management training program.
And I got onto that and came through that, through these sort of internal ranks into, you know, managing a department and then managing a, you know, being assistant manager of a, you know, small supermarket and then a bigger one. And then along the way it was actually probably quite late on.
I was with Tesco for nearly 10 years. So, I was from 16 until I was 26. And I think it was only when I joined TGI Fridays that I really realized that I might have a bit of a flare for this leadership thing. And particularly leadership and communication particularly, very passionate about.
I love words and communication. And I think that's at the point at which I really discovered that, oh, hang on a minute. I'm I might be able to do this thing. And then at that point, I think that's when the idea of, you know, being promoted and being more successful and growing a career really sort of starts to come to the fore.
So I always describe myself as a bit of a late [00:04:00] starter because I didn't get to run a business until I was 30. Which in my industry is pretty late. I mean, you know, I've got general managers now that are 21 years old. So I was late to the party and then, but I think because I was late to the party, I had a wealth of experience behind me, which meant that I then stepped through quite quickly.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: But I think retaining your humility in leadership is really important. And I've always tried to do that and so I've never been. You know, I didn't think when I got my first general manager job, oh, okay, I'm gonna be a CEO. I didn't think I'm gonna be a CEO until, you know, another decade or 15 years later.
So each, as I've approached each new stage in my career, I've done some level of planning towards it, but mostly it's been about being the best at the job I've already got. And then trying to do a bit more, and then sort of trying to shoot for the next job. But I think. I think you've got to, [00:05:00] you know, in, in this sort of, you know, being a human at work and what view I, I think that I've been really fortunate to work for some other people along the way that have been absolute advocates for me and have definitely retained everything that makes a human important and makes a leader great in my opinion.
And that's, that pulled the people up behind them as well and given chances and sort of recognized potential. I think for me that's the way that my career's progressed, that I've worked hard, I've done the best I can to do the best I can, and then I've just had, you know, real role models and mentors along the way that have pulled me up behind them.
And I think that's really made the difference over the years. I.
Helen Wada: Yeah. I think it's so, so important in today's age about knowing, you know, you mentioned a number of things there, but drawing on sort of that knowing yourself. Knowing what you are good at. And that leadership and communication, you know, when you are running a business and to be honest in whatever you are doing, you know, I come at this a lot from a sales perspective where we're working with customers and you will do from a [00:06:00] B2C side.
You know, I work from business to business perspective, but actually those human qualities, the qualities that I see, you know, through my coaching on everyday basis. the communication become those skills that are vitally important in today's world. And even within the commercial pressures that you operate in, it's interesting that those are the skills that you touch on that are actually really important for not only for your career, but actually as you develop others.
Jason Cotta: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's, I think he's becoming even more true as well, or can tell me even more. True. I think it's becoming even more important because I actually think that, and I say this as a positive thing. I mean, people can be. Quite dismissive of the young generation that's coming through now.
The sort of, you know, the Gen Zs and the millennials and what have you, and about them being, you know, not focused on careers or not focused on work and what have you, and [00:07:00] that, that is a sweeping generalization and is therefore entirely wrong because there are plenty of people in that generation that are focused on their careers and focused on, you know, wanting to, you know, live a good life.
But I also think they've got a much clearer idea of balance. My generation certainly didn't have around work and around home and around, you know, the person you are outside of work. So I think for this generation of leaders, I think we've gotta be even more focused on the fact that actually people's.
Home life and work life are, you know, are ha have to be in balance, but not just in balance. That I think as leaders we have to ensure that we create a culture in which people feel that they can and want to do their best. And don't just do it because you tell them to,
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: actually they also, I think the Gen Zs and millennials have a very strong sense of self where you, where they look at, look back at you and go.
Why would I do that? You know, be so, so, [00:08:00] so, I think as leaders, I think you've gotta, you've gotta be even more attuned to it now because there is no, just tell anymore. There, there is only the sort of, you know, creating the culture and creating the environment in which people want to seek to do their best as opposed to telling them they've got to do that thing.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: ,
Which is even more about staying true to yourself, isn't it? Because ultimately, if you don't believe that in your core about your, the importance of those things, then you can't fake that stuff. You sort of believe it and it's in your value set or it isn't.
Helen Wada: Yeah. I think you're right. And I think where the tension has historically come from is this kind of laser sharp, commercial focused focus. I. You know, being, you know, at one end of the scale, you know, and I'll exaggerate for effect, but laser sharp, commercial focus at one end and looking after our people at the other. I think probably what you and I have seen across years and years of experience and, you know, again generalizing, but the never, [00:09:00] the twain have really met. They have in certain instances.
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: you know, there were a number of us that have given up quite a lot for that commercial focus, that extra work the promotion or, you know, whatever you might do.
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: then the people side is, you know, almost the afterthought. But I think we getting to we are getting to the point, I wouldn't be here, we won't be having this conversation
Jason Cotta: Yep.
Helen Wada: we didn't need to say, actually we need to integrate commercial principles with a focus on humanity. Because otherwise we are not gonna get the staff, we're not gonna get the people to work for us.
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: You know, curious to get your perspectives as you see that from the top almost
Jason Cotta: yeah, I do and I, yeah, and I think. I think you're exactly right. I think the and I can give examples in my own career where if I sort of measure my behavior and my decisions then against this drive, this commercial imperative, I don't like my decisions very much. I think that we can all get [00:10:00] locked into that place where we are making decisions for financial purposes or for commercial gain, or because we've got a budget to hit and we can't miss it.
And you make decisions which are. Almost knowingly suboptimal for the long term. Actively damaging in the short term sometimes because you are pursuing a number. And it, you know, I mean, it would be fair to say that, you know, in, in private equity there's a bit of a history of ab absolutely behaving like that, of, you know, this kind of.
I'm gonna say myth 'cause I don't think it's ever actually been particularly true, but this idea of, you know, sort of coming in, asset stripping, getting rid of a load of people, loading it up with debt, selling it onto the next guy. And I think that, I mean, don't make a mistake that has happened over years and over time.
And it's happened in businesses that I've been in, in that time. I think that, you know, when I speak to, you know, particularly the guys that I work with now, or the firm I work with now, [00:11:00] that's, there's an absolute recognition of if you don't factor the human in this, then you cannot possibly achieve the commercial outcome.
You can achieve the commercial outcome in the short term. Absolutely. You get. But if you are, if you're in it for the long game and most private equity businesses are now in it for the long game because the cycles got much longer as well,
Helen Wada: there's not much choice apart from doing it for the long
Jason Cotta: and
Helen Wada: days. Is there, Jason,
Jason Cotta: we get, you're
Helen Wada: no longer the invest and flip. It's just not
Jason Cotta: no, there isn't. Yeah. I mean the sort of 18 month, two year invested flip, I mean that, that finished back in the, you know, the start of this start of the two thousands I think was the last time that happened, but.
So, so you're right. So we've gotta be in it for the long game now, which means that we can be, you know, slightly less short termist but also just cognizant all of the time of the fact that yes, we could do that thing. And yes, it might make us more money in the short term, but it's gonna damage the medium term and it's certainly gonna damage the long term.
So actually, you know, the job of private equity is to [00:12:00] create value and you only create value by growing and making a thing better. So that the next person, you know, wants to pay for that value and then can see their value at the next term. Because if they can't see both of those things, then it's not worth what you think it is.
And so I think from my perspective that, you know, almost the, sometimes I feel like the world's moved closer to me. I was happy in this space and have been for a long time. I've thought, you know, the importance of leadership is that we. You know, this is gonna sound a little bit arrogant. I don't mean it to be but I think that you, if you are in a senior leadership position, then every single person you meet in your business, because they're not gonna interact with you very often should leave the interaction feeling better, having met you than before they arrive to meet you or in whatever the context.
Because they might not see you again that year or ever. Sometimes, I mean, you know, when I was. When I was running Costa Coffee, I mean we had, I had two and a half thousand shops and 20,000 [00:13:00] people.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: There's absolutely people in there that I never met in the entire time I was there, and people that I met once in that entire time.
And even if we're delivering a bad news message, you could still leave that the other person feeling like you value them. And I think as a senior leader, the more senior you become, the more important it is that you leave people feeling better than you found them. And I think that. You know, historically or even currently maybe of some leaders, they just don't see their own influence and power and how positive that can be.
If you behave in a way that's, that always leaves the other furlough feeling valued and that's the mistake we make. But coming back to the private equity point, I think that the. The private equity industry, if you like, also sees that too now. And I think that, so that has become different.
Real point I would make though is that we can all be guilty of not upholding that behavior at time. And I absolutely include myself in it and where [00:14:00] I've just made decisions, which I know were not right, but were financially. Lucrative at that point, or ensure that we hit budget that month or that course, or that year or whatever.
Even though I know they weren't right. And so, you know, not illegal or anything like that but just, you know, not optimal. And I think that's where the real nub of leadership comes is the how you behave under pressure. How you behave under stress. That you don't move off of those values and the things that are genuinely about leadership and what great leaders do.
Helen Wada: And I think that's, it's a really important point that acknowledging who you are, acknowledging your values, knowing how to stick to them when the going gets tough. Because I think you, you are right, you know, nobody sets out to, to do a bad job. Nobody sets out to have, you know, these challenging conversations and being, you know, creating an environment that is not healthy. But unfortunately we hear and we see in the stats and the data that [00:15:00] it, it still exists and it still exists extensively, quite frankly, in the global working world. And so there's something about, you know, to those listening now and tips that you've learned through your leadership journey about what can we do in the moment? have you found helpful in the moment to go, actually, hang on a minute. What do I need to do here to make the right decision for the people for the long term, for sustainable success, which is what we're talking about, creating value.
Jason Cotta: Yeah. I mean, it's a tough one. Be because I think it does, I think it's incumbent on leaders to understand themselves, to understand, you know, what do you value and what do you value in the people around you? What do you value in, you know, how do you want, not how do you want people to think about you but.
You know, what's important to you, and then how do you transmit that out? Because, and I think it comes back to the, you know, sort of [00:16:00] humility point. I think it comes back to having the, you know, the courage to be yourself. I think it comes back to, you know, frame endlessly remaining curious about what's going on around you and what makes the world tick.
And I think if you can hold onto those things.
Navigating Leadership During Crisis
Jason Cotta: Even in the highest stress situations, you can come up with an answer and I'll give you an example of, I remember just before we went into lockdown
Helen Wada: Five years ago, can you believe it's
Jason Cotta: five years ago, I know five years ago, just before we went into lockdown and before we'd sort of realized that we couldn't be with each other anymore, I had a team meeting in my, so I was running Einstein at the time, so I was in Copenhagen and it was in our like staff restaurant, canteen.
Which is where we did all of our team meetings. And I mean, the Danes are amazing for for ensuring that the protection of their work life and their home life, that they're a moen for it. And
Helen Wada: Sec.
Jason Cotta: actually exactly. And there's a reason they're the happiest nation on earth. Yeah. And or the second happiest wherever they are now, but they're right up there in the top five.
But you know, by the way, of example, we all stopped for [00:17:00] lunch every day and had lunch together. And properly stopped for lunch, like, came down to the canteen, had food together, chatted, went back. But anyway, so, we held all our meetings down in this canteen before we realized that. 'cause we didn't know how long lockdowns were gonna last and all the rest of it, but whole team was in, so it was about 50 people in head office at that time.
So I stood up at the front and people were worried. I mean, you know, people genuinely worried, didn't know what to do and all the rest of it. And they're like, you know, looking to their leader as people do at this point. And, and they thought, you know, they're like, what should we do? And I'm like, right, this is what I can tell you.
I have absolutely no idea what's gonna happen next because no one does.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: And so all I can promise you is I'm going to make all of my decisions led by the values I have as a leader. And the first thing I'm going to do is protect livelihoods, jobs, lives. In the best way I can for the three or 4,000 people that work [00:18:00] for us.
I said, and so, and then we went into a sort of a list of things we were gonna do. But I mean, I did that same kind of speech, protecting jobs, protecting livelihoods would be the first thing we would try and do. I did that same speech on a video conference to all 3000 people that followed that. I dunno what's gonna happen.
I have no idea, but I'm gonna make the best decisions I can. With the information I have, and the first thing I would do is I'll try and protect your jobs and your livelihoods. And that's all I could do. And I think that speaks to, it's not very, it's not very humble to say it back now, but it speaks to humility.
I didn't know the answer and they said I didn't know the answer. And that I would stay true to what I valued, which was them and their jobs and their families and, you know, mortgages to pay and all the rest of it. And if you don't, and I think it's still, you know, it remains one of the most, I think. Other people would say of me, powerful things I ever did would say, I don't know, but I'll try.
And I'll try against this backdrop. And I think that, I mean, let's hope [00:19:00] that situation never happens again in, in
Helen Wada: so.
Jason Cotta: whenever and, but. That's the point at which, you know, with where you've got that, you know, the ultimate of crunch decisions and you have to come back to what do I really care about?
What do I really value? And what I really value is the people around me. And therefore that's what I'll try and do.
Helen Wada: And what a period in time that is Jason. And you know, we will never forget it. I still remember collecting my husband, Chris from Singapore, 'cause he'd done a six month stint. CFO out in Asia and we literally had fucked up on Facebook this week, you know, five years ago you collected him from the airport when it was deserted.
And, you know, we all navigated and lots to learn. And I think, you know, that's one where actually where the human advantage was born. Actually, the idea of the concept for it started just prior to lockdown through the coaching work that I do, through the commercial work and the sales role that I had. And we then saw an opening into everybody's [00:20:00] lives like never before. And this sort of the humanity piece really hit home. I love the way that you shared about that honesty. You know, I'm in the middle of writing the book. I'm up at 27, 20 8,000 words now. Goodness. It's hard. It's hard work.
I'm not quite sure what I was doing, but, you know, believe in this so much that actually it's worth. together, because one of the things that I see, and particularly with technical experts that I work with and it can happen, you know, both within organizations and when your or partners that you would've extensively had experience of people are afraid to say, I don't know. And it's just, I've just been writing about it and it's like, it creates much. Tension, frustration, angst, worry. And actually when we bring it down, when we boil it down, it kind of sounds so simple, but need to be honest. We [00:21:00] need to be comfortable with saying, I don't know, do you know what I'm gonna find out?
I'm gonna do my best.
Jason Cotta: Yep.
Helen Wada: what builds trust in relationships. Trust with your teams.
Building Trust and Relationships
Helen Wada: But also, and maybe this is a point that we switch to sort of how these skills are useful for customer relationships partnerships, this isn't just about the way that you communicate with your teams, it's how you connect with partners and customers to ultimately grow the businesses that we're working in.
Jason Cotta: Definitely. Yeah. And I think that. I think the same. I think the same. You carry the same value sets in into all of these relationships. 'cause ultimately it's about relationships, isn't it? And it's about, you know, can I trust the person that I am? I. Talking to and I think, you know, nothing builds trust.
Like, like displaying vulnerability and let's face it, saying, I don't know, is definitely displaying vulnerability.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: And I don't think it matters the situation that you're dealing [00:22:00] with. I think that you, your ability to be, you know, in charge and knowing everything is clearly what you get paid the big bucks for and all the rest of it.
And why you're in charge, because you are capable of leading and confident enough to lead. But yeah, it doesn't make you omnipotent because you're some, somehow the boss. And I think that plays through into a lot of the conversations I have with, you know, in, in this new role. I'm clearly having dozens of, you know, conversations with new suppliers who'd like to be, you know, supply the group and all the rest of it.
And I think that it's the same principle. You've gotta put yourself out there to understand the other person. You've gotta talk a little bit about yourself and you've gotta try and agree. I. The ground rules of we, you know, we're gonna set this relationship on a footing of, and you shouldn't have to say, and when people say, I'm gonna be honest with you, I always think, well, well, you're not gonna be honest with me before.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: but on a footing of honesty and transparency that says, I think we can both get a win out of this situation. It doesn't have to be a win-lose. And I think that, again, it comes back to, you [00:23:00] know, what kind of leaders you want to be and how do you want to. How do you want to go through the world because the other eye doesn't have to lose for you to win.
And look, that sounds a bit wishy-washy, but you know, clearly I come out of a hardnosed commercial background, so I'm the opposite of wishy-washy most of the time. But there is a, you know, you should at least suit for the win of any situation because then you build partnerships, then you build relationships, and then you build, you know, you know, long-term business relationships where the two parties trust each other.
I. And that's gotta be a good thing. 'cause then when things get tough, both sides are prepared to lean in to make the thing work as opposed to a confrontational or contract led relationship where, you know, the first thing you wanna do is pull the contract out and say, but in clo in clause 1.4, it says that you are gonna do X.
And the moment you pull the contract out, the draw, you've already lost. And I think the, you know, contracts are important. Of course they are to set rules, but. It's the relationship bit that goes on top of it. That's actually the important [00:24:00] bit.
Helen Wada: And that comes back to where we started and you know, in the world where, I mean, you work in consumer markets and directly to the customer, so I'm sure AI and technology is gonna be there in the business and, you know, supporting and systems, et cetera. But actually we are coming back to not just a world where AI is prevalent, but where. We have to be back to being human where we, you know, and I talk to people that, you know, afraid of having some of these, you know, maybe more difficult, challenging conversations with, you know, potential customers and partners and suppliers. And there is a natural nervousness going back to the, you know, when people don't know. But you mentioned something there about being curious, about to understand what's important to the other person. These are just the same skills. These are just these leadership skills that I would argue, [00:25:00] you know, in coaching. I've been practicing it for 10 years now that I used to think I was good at listening. much, much better than I was. I'm according to my kids, I'm probably still not perfect. And probably never will be. You know, because we are all human beings. some of these skills, these competencies. We hear about, you know, great leadership are wholly useful when we're in the commercial world.
And I think that for me is where we can really start to ch shift the dial is actually by acknowledging that it is not just about good leadership. It's not just about looking after your people, but actually these are essential skills for doing business today for sustainable set success. And we need to build on that.
Jason Cotta: First a hundred percent agree with you.
The Importance of Understanding and Listening
Jason Cotta: I think that's sort of where you started that, that sort of first seek to understand thing because. You just don't know what's going on for the other person or the point at [00:26:00] which you come into it. And, you know, this is not the ins and outs of their life but there is something about under about, yeah, just don't rush to judgment, you know, seek to understand first.
Listen I. Try and understand what's going on, and then you can start to maybe, you know, either provide coaching or mentorship or challenge or whatever it is or start the beginning of a business relationship. But if you don't understand and you haven't taken the time to listen in the first place, then you're gonna get, you're gonna get to suboptimal solution again, aren't you?
That and I think that's even more important when you're dealing with the difficult conversations because. You know, nobody gets up in the morning and says, I'm gonna go to work today and do a really crappy job. I mean, just nobody, but nobody does that. I mean, that's just not human nature.
And yet it happens and we deal with people that are not performing and what have you, but you know. Understand why in the first instance. And if you understand why, it might still be that, you know, they just don't want to, in which case you know that you should help them find another job. But equally [00:27:00] it can be that if I understand the thing that's going on, then maybe I can make that better for you.
Maybe there's something I can do that would enable you to turn up and be the best version of yourself. And do you know what some, sometimes it's as simple as, you know, I can think of, it's a kind of very mundane example, but you know, somebody that used to work for me back in restaurant days who was late to work by 15 or 20 minutes every single day, and, got, you know, and back when I was much more junior, I got really angry about it and, you know, a bit pointy and you're always late, I'm gonna dock you 20 minutes, Wade is, and all the rest of it. And at some point I must have thought, oh, this is going nowhere. May, maybe I'll just try and do a bit of a seek to understand thing and listen to my own advice.
And and it was really simple. It was. I drop my kids off. At this point, I have to capture this bus, and this bus never gets in before, 15 minutes after the hour. And you keep scheduling me on the hour and I'm like, huh? Tell you what, why don't we just schedule at 15 minutes past the hour and you could be on time every day?
And that. [00:28:00] Cured the world of that problem. And it was so simple and so obvious and so easy to fix. And not everything's like that, of course. But I think there's a nugget in there that says that if you seek to understand them often, you know, so that turned a serial late person into the great person that she always was.
And not arriving stressed to work every day. 'cause she was running late every day.
Helen Wada: And you're right. It's some of those simple things that actually just stopping to think
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: you know? Could I ask a question instead of offering some advice or kind of jumping in? And we'll come to some questions at the end of this because, you know,
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: We love a good question but actually that, that raises another point.
Dealing with Power Dynamics
Helen Wada: And we touched on this when we were sort of planning a bit for this is dealing with power because, you know, you are clearly in a powerful position running the business. But equally a great human guy and, you know, good leader with it as well. But that's not always the case. And I think one of the things that I get asked quite a lot is, how do I [00:29:00] deal with people in positions of power? Because is that, you know, nervousness around big titles or big personalities, you know, customers or or whatever. What's your advice to our listeners being a man in power, Jason?
Jason Cotta: I struggle with this, to be honest. Be because, you know, I. I'm always aware of the power I have, so I don't need to behave like an arse or be demanding 'cause I've already got the power. So I don't, you know, I can ask and I always aim to be respectful to the people around me.
The I can ask for a thing and typically that thing's gonna get done, isn't it? Or somebody will. You know, do something for me or it'll be made to happen in some way. 'cause that's the nature of, you know, our structures as it were. But I think when you run up against somebody who's got the power but doesn't use it well, or you know, punches down when there's really no requirement to do that.
Helen Wada: Yeah, [00:30:00] a sort of per parent child relationship
Jason Cotta: Yeah,
Helen Wada: in coaching about sort of transactional analysis where we talk about ego states, right?
Jason Cotta: absolutely.
Helen Wada: about parent, adult child and what I always
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: to do is how can you look at moving these conversations to adult And regardless of titles.
Jason Cotta: But I think that's exactly, I think you've hit the nail on the head that I think it's the,
don't, you know? Yeah. Don't allow yourself to be the child in the relationship being told off by your dad or your mom. And and I think that. But that's, I mean, that's very easy to say and very hard to do when you're in that power imbalance situation. And you know, I've worked for a couple of truly horrible people in my career and
where I went through whole periods of time where I was just, you know, bullied in the workplace effectively and. It's very hard to break out of that. It's very hard to break out of being the, you know, I [00:31:00] say victim, that's really unfair, but the victim in the situation.
Helen Wada: People do tend to go into victim
Jason Cotta: Oh, they do. They do. Yeah.
Helen Wada: With sort of a parent-child
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: Context.
Jason Cotta: the power imbalance is such that you can't, or you feel you can't challenge back.
And you know, so what I would say about it and then I'm gonna heavily caveat it.
Courage and Self-Worth in the Workplace
Jason Cotta: Is it does, it requires the courage thing again, it requires the who am I? How am I prepared to happen? And to have the courage to, to deal with the circumstance, because let's face it, bullies are cowards at heart.
Even if they're bullies with power, they're still cowards and they don't like being pushed back against. That's also then not so great when that, when the bully has the power to sack you. So I think that I say it heavily caveated against the fact that the only answer in those situations is to, you know, have the courage of your convictions and your values and behave like an adult and state your case.
The [00:32:00] consequences of stating your case are. Can be unfortunate. And that could be that you lose your job or whatever. The other thing I would say is that if you find yourself in those situations, just don't work for that person. 'cause that bit is in your control. Typically, you know, go and find another job because life's way too short to work for those people,
No matter how much money they're paying.
Helen Wada: yeah, and the same goes for commercial relationships, right?
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: you don't connect with the right people, actually move yourself away from that and. Again, you know, knowing yourself, it comes back to that confidence piece and you know, that's where we start when we do all with leaders and, you know, developing their commercial confidence. When you think about you going into a negotiation that might be difficult, know who you are, know what your value is, and know when to pause because actually, you know, questions. [00:33:00] Sticking to you who you are, which is
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: This conversation
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: actually stands you in the position to be able to have that honest adult conversation.
And it's about having the resilience to keep going. And
Jason Cotta: Yeah,
Helen Wada: it will work, sometimes it won't. Sometimes you'll learn. And then we talk about, well, you know, let's review those. reflect, refrain, what can I do about it? Because ultimately we all have. Charge of our own careers and our own destiny.
Jason Cotta: we did but then that. Comes back to that, you know, having that courage, having that self-belief to know that, to, to know that is the opposite, isn't it? Because again, you get yourself locked into behavior and patterns of behavior that mean you can't see a way out other than constantly turning up to work for this person who's clearly not a good person because that's the only option I've got.
But, and it's really the only option you've got. There will be other options and. Again, it comes back to courage. So, [00:34:00] you know, if you haven't got the courage or you don't wish to stand up to the person and front the situation out, then have the courage to. Go and find another job and leave because that person doesn't deserve you.
And I think, you know, there's something about self, your self worth at that point isn't there? That says that you don't deserve me. Because I'm, you know, trying my best. I'm good at what I do. I'm a good person. I'm gonna go and work somewhere else because I mean is only work. And you know, and I love work.
I mean, since the doubt started, I love work, always have done. There comes a point where, you know, and the person I'm thinking about, I mean, the guy was a racist, homophobe, there's no doubt about it. And put me through hell, but at some point, I dunno what day it was under, what incident it was that caused it, but at some point I went, hang on a minute, hang on a minute.
I, I just don't deserve this
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: And I'm gonna go and do something else. And I wasn't brave enough to front him, so I resigned.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: [00:35:00] Went another way around it told, you know, the HR teams and they, this is a lot of years ago, as they were, that was an underdeveloped function back in those days. And yeah,
Helen Wada: we're probably in a very different position
Jason Cotta: we were
Helen Wada: very different.
Jason Cotta: it would be utterly different now but, which is good.
And that's amazing how the world's moved forward. But the point being is that, you know, and I then didn't see him again until, you know, a tribunal about, you know, a year later. And I subsequently stayed with that company because they handled it so well. When I, well, I guess you could argue that I whistle blew on it in the end, but I resigned to do it.
So, you know, it's not the same as people who whistle blow now, who I have so much respect for and who I think there are far too many stories around about them being punished for being a whistleblower. And I, it just makes me so sad that there are still companies and organizations that will behave like that.
Instead of, you know, celebrating them to the roof in the fact that they called it on this thing that we wanna persecute them out. And I mean that, it just [00:36:00] goes right to the heart of what we're talking about here, doesn't it? About values and being a human and doing the right thing. You know, so,
Helen Wada: It does.
Jason Cotta: But it takes courage in leadership again, because in my in Stein when I was running on that, you know, one of the things we did was we set up the proper.
Whistle blowing hotlines, the, you know, the the anonymous emails that went out, people, senior people in the organization and outside the organization that you saw something that was not right. Then tell us, and we promise you we will do something about it and you can tell us who you are or you don't have to.
And, you know, 99% of what came through, it was just regular HR issues, and my boss won't give me the right shift. I'd start.
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: You manage appropriately and you push back through the right view. But every now and again, something would pop up that was genuinely a whistleblowing issue where someone was behaving very badly for whatever reason.
But again, you've gotta want, as a leader, you've gotta want to know that stuff. You've gotta want to find the out or because it's did easy to ignore it. Ignorance [00:37:00] is bliss
Helen Wada: it's coming back to that being human. It's coming back to
Jason Cotta: completely.
Helen Wada: knowing yourself, being curious,
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: Being confident in your conversations and that sometimes is just done to experience Jason.
I think there's where we're, we are learning from each of our experiences that we all have and
New things, getting out of our comfort zones. Moving into new markets, new businesses, we never quite know what's out there. But you know, it's exciting as well too. And if we stick to those core values,
Jason Cotta: yeah. I mean.
Helen Wada: then we are growing our businesses. We're grow, you know, I, ourselves and growing our businesses and that for me is that integration where we can really focus on both those commercial outcomes
Jason Cotta: Yeah,
Helen Wada: from a business perspective, but also those personal outcomes.
And if we. Honest to ourselves and moving those things forward, then actually that's putting humanity at the heart of what we do.
Jason Cotta: Definitely.
Helen Wada: said than done. Sounds like you've got a big job on your hands. [00:38:00] It's
Jason Cotta: yeah. Yeah. We obviously 70 whenever this goes out, but yeah, I mean, it's a big day today as we've sort of formed this new company and what have you and but all of these opportunities now three times over, so, so three great organizations. I look after now and, you know, it's. Full of great people, you know, looking for opportunities that you know, that with the right challenge, with the right leadership, with the right mentorship will grow and become great leaders.
And I think that, I mean, that's actually, I mean that's at the core of why I do the job. It's the people that you bring with you and that you can, you know, you lift up along the way because you can, because you have the power to give people a shot. And I think that's the. Is absolutely the most, you know, the most powerful and rewarding part of this job and being a leader and have you, that enables you to do that sort of stuff.
Helen Wada: I think they're lucky to have you at the home, Jason.
Jason Cotta: thank you. That's very
Helen Wada: congra, congratulations on the role. I'm not gonna let you off the hook before before we go, but
Jason Cotta: Okay.
Helen Wada: a couple of points. What would be your top tip?
Final Thoughts and Top Tips
Helen Wada: listeners, having listened reflected [00:39:00] back on the last sort of 40 minutes of our conversation, what would be your top tip from all your years of experience as we look at leadership values being human at work, what would you say?
Jason Cotta: So I mean, as you might imagine I get to do these things. Quite often to, you know, talk to people. And I spoke to a group at King's College last a couple of weeks ago for today, the Entrepreneur Society at King's College. So I'm quite optimistic about this next generation. 'cause these guys were smart people.
Love lovely people. Smart people. No. Completely. You know, I mean, whole bunch of very difficult questions, but super smart people and lovely people. So, but I mean, I, I said the same to them, I think in leadership for me. You know. There, there's definitely the know yourself thing around, you know, what are your values?
But, and then I've kind of gone, you know, be curious. Seek to understand, seek to learn, seek to know what's going on for the other person. Be courageous because sometimes you just have to be in leadership. You have to be the person, you know, they [00:40:00] chose you to leave from the front. You know, I've never had to do any kind of life threatening kind of leadership.
So, hats off to those kind of people that do that kind of leadership. But, you know, ultimately. I have the power to shape thousands of people's lives, and you should be deeply respectful of the fact that's what you've got and that you behave in the right way. So, you know, have courage, be courageous and then I think be considerate because it costs you nothing it costs nothing to think about the other person or to take a beat and go, I know what's going on for this person.
And then to be considerate of that fact because. If you want to, if you wanted to make it transactional, it will pay you back. The, you know, the better you treat people when they're having a tough time, the more it will pay you back down the line. So if you wanna be utterly, you know, somewhat Machiavellian about it or you know, transactional about it, then the better you treat people, the better it will come for you down the line.
And yeah. You know, [00:41:00] be curious.
Helen Wada: that applies to everything, right?
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: to your teams, your customers, your clients,
Jason Cotta: Everybody.
Helen Wada: everybody.
Jason Cotta: Yeah.
Helen Wada: And before you go, one final question. So I, good coach loves a good question, but what question would you get listeners to reflect on for themselves? Because I think a question always us thinking in a different, slightly different way.
Jason Cotta: I would ask you to think about what really motivates you. And then seek to find that. And for me, I'll give you mine,
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Jason Cotta: purpose in the world, and I worked this out with a coach. It wasn't with you Helen but with another coach in your world. That my purpose is to do good in the world by enabling others to realize their full potential.
Helen Wada: Lovely.
Jason Cotta: That is what I do it for.
Helen Wada: Amazing with a massive smile on your face. If you're listening, you can't see it, but I [00:42:00] can see it and I can feel it. And it's been a true delight to have you on the show, Jason, so thank you for taking the time to join us. luck with all those investor meetings later this afternoon. And,
Jason Cotta: Thank you very much.
Helen Wada: forward to meeting you in the moley in the not too distant future
Jason Cotta: You are most welcome. Dinner's. Dinner's on me when you come. Yeah.
Helen Wada: Awesome. Love it. Well,
Jason Cotta: Thank you.
Helen Wada: see you and good luck with it all, Jason. Take care.
Jason Cotta: Thank you. Bye.
Helen Wada: Bye.