Ep62: Sustainable Success at Work Starts with Being Human with Dr. Emma Waddington
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What happens when high performance becomes unsustainable? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by clinical psychologist and founder of Us Therapy, Dr. Emma Waddington, to explore the growing tension between commercial success and human wellbeing in today’s workplace.
Drawing on years of experience supporting leaders, teams, and high-performing professionals in Singapore, Emma shares why burnout, anxiety, and overwhelm are becoming increasingly common in modern organisations. Together, Helen and Emma unpack why human-centred leadership is no longer optional, how trust and psychological safety shape performance, and why rest, reflection, and connection are essential for sustainable success.
This is a powerful conversation for leaders, commercial teams, and organisations navigating pressure, change, and the growing complexity of modern work.
Topics Discussed
Why burnout and overwhelm are increasing in modern workplaces
The connection between high performance and psychological safety
How leaders create cultures where people can speak up
Balancing commercial success with human-centred leadership
The importance of reset, reflection, and deliberate rest
How trust shapes customer relationships and team performance
Why listening is one of the most underrated business skills
AI, relationships, and the future of human connection at work
How identity, belonging, and purpose influence wellbeing
Why sustainable success requires both performance and humanity
Timestamps:
00:00 – 02:30 | Introduction to Dr. Emma Waddington and the Human Wise conversation
02:31 – 05:30 | What it means to be human at work
05:31 – 08:45 | Toxic achievement culture, burnout, and relentless pressure
08:46 – 10:45 | Leadership responsibility and psychological safety
10:46 – 13:30 | The “Get, Threat, and Reset” model for sustainable performance
13:31 – 16:30 | Why reset and rest are often neglected at work
16:31 – 19:15 | Deliberate rest, creativity, and better thinking
19:16 – 21:45 | Pausing conversations and creating reflective space
21:46 – 24:30 | Burnout, identity, and the “identity house” analogy
24:31 – 28:00 | Self-awareness, relationships, and understanding others
28:01 – 31:15 | Trust, intimacy, and human-centred sales conversations
31:16 – 34:45 | Why trust matters more than ever in fast-moving markets
34:46 – 37:15 | AI, relationships, and the future of human connection
37:16 – 40:00 | Repair, trust, and what healthy relationships require
40:01 – 42:30 | Final reflections and practical leadership insight
Read the episode blog here
About Dr. Emma Waddington
Dr Emma Waddington is the Director of Us Therapy, a Singapore-based psychology clinic with 20+ clinicians that has delivered over 20,000 sessions across clinical care, couples work, assessments, and corporate EAP services.
Her clinical expertise spans couples and relationship issues, neurodivergence and perfectionism and anxiety and toxic achievement culture, with a particular interest in how high-pressure environments shape mental health. Emma has also built and delivers Caring Without Compromise, a leadership program helping high-performing teams in law and finance build trust, psychological safety, and sustainable performance. She is a sought-after speaker and trainer for schools and professional audiences, and hosts the podcast Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
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Description tex[00:00:00]
[00:00:29] Warm Shoutout Ashley
[00:00:29] Welcome And Guest Intro
[00:00:29] Helen Wada: good morning, and welcome to another episode of HumanWise. I am delighted to have Dr. Emma Waddington with me. Emma is a friend over many years. We met in London in
[00:00:42] Helen Wada: Wimbledon, but now you reside in Singapore. You're the director of Us Therapy, a Singapore-based psychology clinic with over 20 clinicians delivering over 20,000 hours in clinical care, couples work, assessments, and corporate EAP services.
[00:00:59] Helen Wada: So [00:01:00] that's employee assistance programs to really support people where they work and, and how they are in their mental well- wellbeing and health. Your clinical expertise spans couples, relationship issues, neurodivergence and perfectionism, anxiety, and toxic achievement culture, with particular interest in how high-pressure environments shape
[00:01:22] Helen Wada: mental health.
[00:01:24] Dr Emma Waddington: That's
[00:01:24] Helen Wada: I know that's really close to your heart, Emma, in your doctorate and your work. It really stems from your background in psychology. Emma has also built and delivers Caring Without Compromise,
[00:01:36] Helen Wada: a leadership program helping high-performing teams in law and finance build trust, psychological safety, and sustainable performance. You're a sought-after speaker, trainer for schools and professional audiences in Singapore, and also host the podcast Life's Dirty
[00:01:53] Helen Wada: Little Secrets,
[00:01:54] Helen Wada: which is one of my faves, and I love to listen to it in the gym.
[00:01:57] Helen Wada: so it's an absolute delight [00:02:00] to have you on the show. It's taken a while for us to get here, but I'm really excited for the conversation ahead, and particularly on day one, where both our children are doing GCSEs.
[00:02:10] Helen Wada: How's that happened?
[00:02:11] Dr Emma Waddington: I know. Oh, it's fun, and I know we've had many versions of this conversation before, so it's almost like a continuation of a conversation that we've had about-
[00:02:21] Dr Emma Waddington: Yeah ...
[00:02:22] Dr Emma Waddington: the importance of thinking about the human in the work that we do
[00:02:26] Helen Wada: Yeah. No, it really is. And you've listened to some of the podcasts, Emma, you, you know where I'm focused with the human advantage and really building a more human working world, but with that commercial focus.
[00:02:39] Being Human At Work
[00:02:39] Helen Wada: With all your experience coming from that psychology background, what does being human at work mean to you?
[00:02:46] Dr Emma Waddington: I think that sometimes we forget that just because we're in an office, we don't stop being human, in that, humans are driven by the same things in an office, outside an office, in our relationships, and that [00:03:00] is, connection, being seen, being known, being understood, being valued. And so that's the same when we're working.
[00:03:08] Dr Emma Waddington: And when we're leaders, we have to be very mindful that those that we're leading are looking to us for that too, are looking to us to feel known, understood, valued, like they truly matter. They're not just a robot that's delivering a job, that's doing the work, that they are, more than an employee.
[00:03:30] Dr Emma Waddington: That there's more to us
[00:03:32] Helen Wada: There really is, and it, it's
[00:03:34] Helen Wada: that
[00:03:35] Helen Wada: who, who we are, who we really are.
[00:03:37] Helen Wada: And you, you must get to see with a lot of your therapy work some of the implications
[00:03:43] Helen Wada: of challenging work environments, you know, that has an impact on people. What, what, what are some of the impacts of the negative behaviors at work that you get to see
[00:03:54] Helen Wada: through the work that you do?
[00:03:56] Toxic Pressure And Burnout
[00:03:56] Dr Emma Waddington: working in Singapore, I'm very privileged. I work with a lot of [00:04:00] high-performance teams. I work both in organizations, but on the individual level, I'm privileged to see a lot of leaders. And really, some of these working environments that we find ourselves in more and more are really very toxic. We are asking individuals to do-- to work in unsustainable ways.
[00:04:23] Dr Emma Waddington: So the high-performance teams that I'm familiar with are facing relentless pressure every day. There is demands coming from obviously the work that they're doing, but there's also demands emotionally from their colleagues, what's happening to their colleagues. And then we all carry the emotional load of what's happening outside the world, outside for geopolitically, but also within our families as well.
[00:04:49] Dr Emma Waddington: And all of that is within the individual. So I see a lot of stress, I see a lot of anxiety, I see a lot of burnout and overwhelm, and people really feeling [00:05:00] very stuck, that they don't know what to do to make things better. Because there is a concern about keeping jobs and making sure you don't lose your job.
[00:05:08] Dr Emma Waddington: There aren't that many avenues in many organizations to actually speak up and say that things are hard. There's still a lot of shame. Burnout is almost carried like a badge of honor. Like if you're burnt out, it means you're working hard enough. But it doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to be that, that way.
[00:05:27] Dr Emma Waddington: We can, I believe, care about doing a really good job and care deeply about the work that we do, and still care about our wellbeing. We don't have to sacrifice ourselves at the altar of success. We can do well and be well
[00:05:47] Helen Wada: It's interesting, isn't it? Because you, you, you're coming at, at this from, from one angle, and I see the same in, in, the UK, but in the work that, that I'm doing, in that it, it was the driver for, for writing [00:06:00] Humanwise. That constant pressure for more, that
[00:06:03] Helen Wada: constant pressure to grow. The what's going on in the outside world, managing, juggling multiple priorities. And, and that's just at work, right? You, you have things at, at home as well that you need to navigate
[00:06:16] Helen Wada: and manage. But actually the
[00:06:19] Dr Emma Waddington: Multigenerational as well. Yeah
[00:06:21] Helen Wada: it's all of that, and but the belief that actually we can lead with humanity, but be commercially successful.
[00:06:31] Leadership And Safety
[00:06:35] Helen Wada: And for me, it comes down to a couple of things. And so, number one, it's, it's about the cultures that you create.
[00:06:39] Helen Wada: It- it's very much about the leaders and the way in which people are leading and managing. It's about our ability to push back and say, "No," or, "That's not a priority right now."
[00:06:52] Helen Wada: I think there's too much emphasis on, "Yes, we'll just do more." Whereas, more for what, is my [00:07:00] question.
[00:07:00] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And creating those environments,
[00:07:06] Helen Wada: yeah
[00:07:06] Dr Emma Waddington: you know, I think you're right. From a leadership perspective, there is a huge responsibility to create environments where you can ask questions, and you can challenge, and you can say no, and you can be curious. And I think that does have to start with the leadership, because it's very hard to be in an organization where the leader is doing much more Sort of leader- leadering or giving orders versus actually being curious and leaning in to hear from others.
[00:07:40] Dr Emma Waddington: Like, it does create a culture where you feel uncomfortable asking questions, and that means that when things are hard, you won't speak up, which leads to ineffectiveness. It leads to a loss of creativity people delivering work that, isn't as good as it could be. [00:08:00] But it also adds risk. Means more mistakes are made.
[00:08:04] Dr Emma Waddington: It means that more people are going to, not speak up when something terrible might be about to happen, and there's plenty of examples of that in organizations, that it happens every day. And so thinking that you can get away with not creating a culture that feels psychologically safe is really naive in this day and age, I think.
[00:08:26] Dr Emma Waddington: It's not possible
[00:08:29] Helen Wada: No, it, it, it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to not do it, but equally we don't see it advocated often enough. I think it's, is what's interesting. And in, in the work that I do, we work with experts that want to grow their business. We, we're very much, looking at that commercial angle. How do you grow?
[00:08:49] Helen Wada: How do you build your business and create opportunities and influence others? But we do it in a way by putting the human-centered [00:09:00] skills at the heart of that.
[00:09:02] Helen Wada: So it's, it's not just about, what are we doing from a commercial angle, it's how can we bring in these skills of curiosity, of psychological safety, of being able to take a step back and ask questions, about really listening.
[00:09:18] Helen Wada: That's not just listening on the surface. I think listening is most, one of the most underrated
[00:09:23] Helen Wada: skills
[00:09:23] Dr Emma Waddington: I agree.
[00:09:24] Helen Wada: world.
[00:09:25] Dr Emma Waddington: Yeah. In, in the world in general, to be honest.
[00:09:28] Helen Wada: yeah.
[00:09:29] Dr Emma Waddington: I think we could do, we'd do better if we were better listeners to our kids, to our partners, to our peers. Yeah, I agree
[00:09:37] Helen Wada: But what's the, the sort of secret sauce here? Because we see it every day, and we're saying, "Actually, we don't want you to stop focusing on the commercial direction of the business," because that just wouldn't work, whether it's a not-for-profit or whether it's a corporate organization or a school or a government or... Money makes the world go round, right?[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Helen Wada: So you have to have this commercial focus. But at the same time we're saying, "Do you know what? That we can lead in a better way."
[00:10:09] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm
[00:10:10] Helen Wada: What, what can we be doing to shift the di- I, I talk about it as muscles. How do we balance the commercial focus with that... I talk about a coaching approach, that caring approach, the compassion
[00:10:21] Dr Emma Waddington: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:10:24] Three Modes Model
[00:10:24] Dr Emma Waddington: So one of the, one of the models that I, I really love using when I'm working with organizations is by Ross White, and he talks about there being three legs to the organizational stool. And one is ... And they're the three drivers of behavior. One is the get mode. That's when we're really excited and really motivated, and we're really driven, and we're getting
[00:10:49] Dr Emma Waddington: We're meeting those targets, and, teams come together and can really drive a lot of really useful behavior when they're in that get mode. The second [00:11:00] mode is the threat mode. So that's when we're under deadlines, when we're there are ... The risk, we're managing risk, we're managing situations that are really quite scary.
[00:11:12] Dr Emma Waddington: And that's when, we're trying to manage from a place of perhaps more anxiety and more fear. But it's very important, it's very important that we can function in that sort of threat mode. And both of those can go rogue. We can get too stuck in the get mode and too fixated on doing things really, really well and get very perfectionistic.
[00:11:33] Dr Emma Waddington: We can also get stuck in the threat mode and get really, really worried and almost procrastinate because, things are quite scary. And then there's a third mode, which we call the reset mode, and that is the mode where we are allowing our nervous system to reset. It's like a rest, rest and digest.
[00:11:52] Dr Emma Waddington: Now, when we think about rest, it doesn't need to be a passive rest where you're lying back and watching TV on Netflix, although that might be [00:12:00] exactly what you need. But it can be active, deliberate rest. You can rest and reset at work with your colleagues. You can reset having a really lovely conversation over a cup of coffee or, doing an activity together.
[00:12:16] Dr Emma Waddington: And it's really important that ... And again, the reset mode can go rogue, and you can get really passive and sit too long in front of the TV. And the key is really to think about, what mode am I in right now, and, which is my dominant mode? If we find ourselves, spending too much time in the threat mode, we're under a lot of stress at work we need to compensate for that by making sure that the other two are also being activated.
[00:12:42] Dr Emma Waddington: So it's like if it's ... If you think of the three legs in the stool, they all need to be similar lengths, otherwise you topple over.
[00:12:49] Helen Wada: Yeah, I love that
[00:12:51] Dr Emma Waddington: yes, you need to think about the reset. The reset usually is the one that's most neglected. Like, people feel, very driven and motivated, and things are going really [00:13:00] well, and then perhaps they're chasing deadlines and getting really anxious, but they neglect that third leg, which is the reset mode.
[00:13:06] Dr Emma Waddington: And I think that's key
[00:13:09] Why Reset Gets Ignored
[00:13:09] Helen Wada: and it's, it's interesting hearing it that language in, in just that way, Emma, because you're right. I think if I was to think, again, we- we're talking broadly of the population and people that we see in organizations, I would say, most people, most of the time are in that get mode,
[00:13:27] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:28] Dr. Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:13:28] Helen Wada: in the get mode, right?
[00:13:29] Helen Wada: So we're, we're 80% in the get mode and probably 15% in threat mode.
[00:13:36] Helen Wada: If anything is left, there's a reset, but, but there's not often a
[00:13:41] Helen Wada: reset, and that's what you talk
[00:13:42] Helen Wada: about is the burnout.
[00:13:43] Helen Wada: So it- we're looking at a, at 80%, 15%, and then maybe a 5% if you're lucky for the reset. Now,
[00:13:51] Dr. Emma Waddington: right
[00:13:52] Helen Wada: what happens is when those threats increase, when the risks increase, when the boss shouts loudly, when the stakeholders come in, [00:14:00] what happens is that that threat, the percentage of that threat goes up.
[00:14:04] Helen Wada: That might go from 15 to, say,
[00:14:07] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:08] Helen Wada: still, you're still doing the get,
[00:14:11] Helen Wada: and actually a lot of get doesn't stop, so what you end up with is you end up with 65% threat, 65% get, which means you're already toppling over on that stool,
[00:14:23] Dr Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:14:23] Helen Wada: reset
[00:14:25] Helen Wada: just gets left behind because there's
[00:14:26] Helen Wada: just no space.
[00:14:28] Dr Emma Waddington: That's right
[00:14:30] Helen Wada: I think it's really interesting you hear that because I look back at my career, at the organizations that I work with and, and that's what's happening.
[00:14:39] Helen Wada: And we then start to wonder why, the, the humanity at work is not there.
[00:14:47] Helen Wada: Because, I talk about the commercial focus with the coaching approach, but it just becomes all about doing less about being.
[00:14:57] Dr Emma Waddington: That's right
[00:14:58] Helen Wada: and for us to [00:15:00] be sustainably successful... What do I mean by sustainably successful? Is sustainable for the organization, the stakeholders, the shareholders, and the people that are working within it, is, is we really need to blend the two. And that's not saying we, we we're all fluffy and cotton wool and sitting watching Netflix all day.
[00:15:20] Helen Wada: Far
[00:15:21] Helen Wada: from it, right?
[00:15:22] Helen Wada: People want purpose. People love working towards something that they can add value to. People like helping their customers, right? People want to work. But the environments that are being created or have been created over the last 20, 30 years become relentless machines. And we're not
[00:15:44] Helen Wada: machines, right.
[00:15:45] Helen Wada: We're human beings
[00:15:46] Dr Emma Waddington: That's right. That's right.
[00:15:48] Deliberate Rest And Creativity
[00:15:56] Dr Emma Waddington: And I think the, this idea that reset is, or the rest piece is unimportant is quite irrational. There's lots of examples. Uh, we had a [00:16:00] conversation with a guy called Alex Pang, who does a lot of work looking at rest, and he has these brilliant sort of examples of, Nobel Prize winners where their rest was just as important as their work.
[00:16:16] Dr Emma Waddington: So, Darwin used to have, four-hour walks every day, and and he has lots of examples in his book, which is this, that's named Rest. And this idea that, rest is part of our work. There's a lot that happens during the rest process that actually helps us to be more effective at work.
[00:16:35] Dr Emma Waddington: So we know that the ... We have a part of the brain called the default network mode. The default network mode is, is really where your brain is resting, but it's actually not quiet. It's often processing the information that you have fed it during your active work time. So the rest, the ... What, what Alex Pang calls is deliberate rest.
[00:16:56] Dr Emma Waddington: It may be a hobby that you love. It may be spending some really good [00:17:00] time with your colleagues. Whatever it is that feels like rest, that's restorative, your brain is still ticking along, and it's actually processing that information, and it's making you ready to do good work. So thinking that they're somehow in competition is actually not the full picture.
[00:17:18] Dr Emma Waddington: The full picture is that they work together in combination. That reset piece is paramount for good work, for coping with the threat mode, for handling the get mode, for getting ready for the next piece of work. So seeing it as somehow, not relevant or less than is, is inaccurate
[00:17:43] Helen Wada: And again, I, I just love the way that it, this, it, it comes together
[00:17:49] Helen Wada: as it's not one or the other. Neither of us are saying that it's not one or the other, but it's actually complementary. If you think about, and if listeners that are listening to this think about where do you have your [00:18:00] best ideas?
[00:18:01] Dr Emma Waddington: Hmm, that's right.
[00:18:02] Helen Wada: creativity?
[00:18:04] Dr Emma Waddington: That's
[00:18:04] Helen Wada: Where is the curiosity?
[00:18:06] Helen Wada: I always joke that the subtitle to the book came to me literally whilst waiting for Chris to do the Brighton Marathon about just over a year ago. I was sat in this little hotel room. I'm like, "You know what? This is..." And, and all of a sudden you're looking at these people, you're
[00:18:21] Helen Wada: playing...
[00:18:21] Helen Wada: I'm like, "That's it." Like, that wasn't sat at my computer, that wasn't sat writing a Word document. Sometimes people say, "The best thinking I have is, is in the shower," but that's because there's nothing
[00:18:33] Helen Wada: else to do, right.
[00:18:34] Helen Wada: There's, there's no
[00:18:35] Helen Wada: phones to scroll. You are literally there with your own thoughts.
[00:18:40] Helen Wada: And I was sharing only this morning on LinkedIn actually with a brilliant lady in the UK called Christine Armstrong, and she talks a lot about the workplace and thriving at work, and she was just talking about, sitting on your own. And, and what I reflected
[00:18:53] Helen Wada: on was I miss all the international travel I used to do.
[00:18:57] Helen Wada: I still do some, but not as much because that used to [00:19:00] really be creative time for me to think.
[00:19:03] Dr Emma Waddington: 嗯，Yeah
[00:19:05] Helen Wada: restoring, so restoring doesn't have to be nothing.
[00:19:08] Dr Emma Waddington: Yeah, yeah, absolutely
[00:19:10] Helen Wada: it can be active, and I think that's the difference. You can have active restorative periods that mean that we take ourselves out in a different way rather than from the constant
[00:19:23] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what you're speaking to is this, when we get ideas when we're resting, is that default network mode is still active. It's still busy. It's not stopped. There's no silence in the brain. It's still working away. It's still churning. And so it can be very fertile land for creativity
[00:19:50] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:19:50] Pause And Reset
[00:19:57] Helen Wada: Tak- taking it another step further, taking that, that reset, one of the things that I talk about in the sales coaching programs that we run is, when you're having conversations,
[00:19:59] Helen Wada: [00:20:00] how do you pause in the moment? How do you s- how do you pause and reset a conversation? Because these skills are muscles that people need to build because again, you're plowing through.
[00:20:13] Helen Wada: It can be done at any level, but you take a conversational level,
[00:20:18] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:19] Helen Wada: are we calling pause? When are we calling timeout? When are we sensing, we have as many neurons in our guts as we do in our minds, and it's all data for us. But when you're sensing that things are going off track, how do we pause and say, "Let's just, reflect here.
[00:20:37] Helen Wada: Are we on the right track? Are we not on the track, the right track?"
[00:20:40] Helen Wada: Because the danger is, going back to your three stalls, is that we just keep going to get mode, and we're not noticing what's around us
[00:20:50] Dr Emma Waddington: Yeah, that's right.
[00:20:51] Reset With Others
[00:20:54] Dr Emma Waddington: And I think reset can also be, with colleagues. You don't have to take yourself out for a walk around the block, although that might be exactly what you need. You can [00:21:00] reset with your peers. You can, sit down and have a coffee and talk about your favorite pets or whatever it might be that, feel good.
[00:21:09] Dr Emma Waddington: Like, reset doesn't have to be, hours necessarily. Although I do think that having, great hobbies that we really love is very good for our wellbeing and helps us to, helps us to live fully.
[00:21:25] Identity House Rooms
[00:21:27] Dr Emma Waddington: I sometimes talk about our identity house. Our, our identity, what we stand for is like a house, and it has lots of rooms.
[00:21:33] Dr Emma Waddington: And we need to make sure that there are lots of rooms. There isn't just one room. Some of the Some of the, the concerns that we get with burnout is that, our identity room is our work, and therefore... Is that the... Can you hear the chicken? She's just come and perched herself, Ashley will be very familiar with her, perched herself outside the window and has decided that she's [00:22:00] not happy with the lamp.
[00:22:02] Dr Emma Waddington: Huh. Anyway, she's gone, I think. Apologies, Ashley. Yeah. Yeah. So what we see sometimes, with burnout, what I see quite consistently is that in our identity house, if our, the biggest room in the house is work, and that work is not going well, and so things are not going well at work, we're not feeling masterful, we're not feeling particularly connected with our peers, we're feeling under a lot of stress, very much in that sort of threat mode.
[00:22:33] Dr Emma Waddington: If we don't have big enough rooms, like, our family, our relationships outside of our family, hobbies, sport, whatever it might
[00:22:44] Dr Emma Waddington: be, it will really affect us. We're much more at risk for burnout if the biggest room in the house is the one that's most at risk. So instead, we wanna think about having lots of different rooms, and that the rooms are really well looked after and kept, and that [00:23:00] protects us from burnout.
[00:23:01] Dr Emma Waddington: You don't want all your identity to be tied to, how much work you're doing or how well you're doing at work because that makes you vulnerable, especially in in times when things feel really quite uncertain and quite scary
[00:23:19] Helen Wada: And, and we're living right through those times right now.
[00:23:22] Helen Wada: I
[00:23:22] Dr Emma Waddington: That's
[00:23:26] Helen Wada: the with technology and AI, and,
[00:23:31] Helen Wada: What's gonna happen to my role? What do I need to do for my team?
[00:23:34] Who Are You Really
[00:23:43] Helen Wada: There are so many unanswered questions that... And it's interesting, in Humanise I, I talk about, linking it with the commercial focus, but how you show up is, is chapter number one, right?
[00:23:50] Helen Wada: And, and for
[00:23:50] Helen Wada: me, we can only, we can only be at our best when we're in role, whatever that may be, once we really [00:24:00] take time to understand who we really are as people. And that's who we are personal level, what's important to us professionally, why we're good at what we do. It amazes me when, when we work with groups, the number of people when asked, "Well, who are you?"
[00:24:17] Helen Wada: A-
[00:24:17] Helen Wada: and, and actually it's who are you? Like three words. But it's often one of the hardest questions to answer
[00:24:27] Dr Emma Waddington: And do you think that's because they don't feel that that's been asked in the context of work, or do you think that they've not explored that question personally?
[00:24:40] Helen Wada: I think it's probably a bit of both.
[00:24:41] Helen Wada: I think if it's not asked, it's not something that is naturally explored.
[00:24:47] Dr Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:24:48] Helen Wada: and we, we change through, through our lives as well, right? So if we, if we're not resetting, if we're not having that pause[00:25:00]
[00:25:00] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:00] Helen Wada: to create the re- the reflective space, and it's not asked of us, then we never really think about it, right?
[00:25:07] Helen Wada: We just, we just do what we do, and we, we go and get, and we, and we go and get the next thing until the threat appears, and that might be you need to shift jobs or you need to move teams or, there's risk coming down the line. So we, we just don't create the space to reflect who we really are and what's important to us. And for me, when you're talking to other stakeholders in the business, other teams, your customers, creating new business, how can we understand others unless we've truly reflected on ourselves first? And for me, it's the deep work starts with you to then be able to have the confidence and to get curious about what it means for others.
[00:25:55] Helen Wada: You have your
[00:25:55] Helen Wada: house. I love the house analogy. But if I'm having a [00:26:00] conversation with you, what does your house look like, Emma?
[00:26:02] Dr Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:26:04] Helen Wada: And what's important to you? If I'm building relationships with customers, I need to know what your house looks like.
[00:26:09] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:26:11] Helen Wada: I need to know what's a priority. And if your ground floor is work, what's going on in the ground floor?
[00:26:18] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm. And
[00:26:19] Helen Wada: What does success
[00:26:21] Dr Emma Waddington: yeah, exactly, what does success look like?
[00:26:23] Trust Equation Basics
[00:26:23] Dr Emma Waddington: And I guess, relationally, There's such a piece around, such an important piece around trust, and building trust in, in your relationships at work. Be it, within your organization, but even when you are reaching out to potential collaborations or commercial interests.
[00:26:42] Dr Emma Waddington: Building trust is so very important. It feels like it's getting more and more important, like people don't trust each other as much anymore. And the bottom line is to know that you have a relationship, and that that person does have your back, [00:27:00] knows what you mean, knows what you stand for, gets you.
[00:27:04] Dr Emma Waddington: And that can only be created, I believe, through conversations
[00:27:11] Helen Wada: And it, it, we talk a lot about the, the David Maister trust equation. Many, many of our listeners will be familiar with that. If, if you're not, it's a, a, model that was introduced many years ago now in terms of, what, what is trust? It's a definition as an equation. It's your credibility, your reliability, and, and then there's two things for me, because those are often a given in the professional work environment.
[00:27:33] Helen Wada: Yeah, I'm
[00:27:34] Helen Wada: credible at what I do. I'm reliable. I do what I say I will do. But, but the third piece on the top of the equation is intimacy. And I think we need to think about what does intimacy mean in the context of commercial relationships. That's not an intimate one-to-one husband/wife relationship, partner-to-partner relationship, but how, how do you get intimate with your business contacts?
[00:27:58] Helen Wada: It's about showing interest in them.[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Dr Emma Waddington: 嗯。
[00:28:01] Helen Wada: curious. It's about thinking about them as a human being. It's about asking what's important to them, how can you help them, and checking in on them. This isn't necessarily just to, to sell what you do, but it's how do you create that intimacy that's a fundamental component of trust?
[00:28:18] Coaching Over Self Interest
[00:28:18] Helen Wada: And then the, the, the piece underneath it that throws that trust away is self-interest.
[00:28:25] Dr Emma Waddington: Ja
[00:28:25] Helen Wada: now that is really important when you think about commercial relationships and you think particularly about sales, which is the work that I work in, because people often think about selling as, "Well, I've gotta sell because my target is X," right?
[00:28:38] Helen Wada: So everything becomes about me and my target, rather than you as the customer. And so I think we have to be really aware of this self-interest, and I think when you, you go back to what you were talking about in the world of work and where do the threats come from, it comes because people [00:29:00] themselves feel threatened, and then the self-interest and the protectionism comes around, and so they go all about me,
[00:29:06] Helen Wada: and they're not thinking about others.
[00:29:07] Helen Wada: And so for me that, that's the coaching lens that we talk about, because the heart of a coaching approach is putting others at the heart of the conversation, and that's why I s- believe so strongly about this coaching muscle, because it, it puts other people at the heart of your conversation. It takes you out of it. Now, yes, you've got your commercial interests. You have to move forward, whether that's internally or externally. But we need to blend the two. It's, it's like what you were talking about, that, that, space to think and grow as well as the, the, the space to go and get. But it's, it's blending that two.
[00:29:47] Helen Wada: It's having a commercial focus, but taking a coaching approach and building that trust and showing that your interests are, or their interests are your interests.
[00:29:58] Dr Emma Waddington: And I guess [00:30:00] thinking from, from your perspective, do you find that when people don't work on that relational level, don't build that trust, ultimately they don't, aren't as successful commercially?
[00:30:16] Trust At Market Speed
[00:30:16] Helen Wada: Yeah, I, I think trust has got an awful lot to do with it.
[00:30:19] Helen Wada: People blame, People often blame price, Excuse me. People often blame price market challenges. It absolutely, those are out there for sure. But, but for me, when the market's moving so pa- so fast,
[00:30:36] Helen Wada: need to build trust in a nanosecond. actually it means trust is even more important.
[00:30:43] Helen Wada: O- in years gone by maybe you could build trust over time,
[00:30:46] Dr Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:30:48] Helen Wada: move and the market moves, which means you need to have the ability to build trust even more quickly than you did before.
[00:30:54] Dr Emma Waddington: Hmm, that
[00:30:55] Helen Wada: and that's with your teams as well as your customers
[00:30:59] Dr Emma Waddington: [00:31:00] That makes sense. Yeah. Why do you think it, the speed is because of the... Why is the speed so important nowadays?
[00:31:09] Helen Wada: 'Cause, 'cause relationships are less sticky.
[00:31:12] Dr Emma Waddington: Umm
[00:31:13] Helen Wada: are looking at the market, they're looking for different things. There's new products, there's new services out there. And so
[00:31:21] Dr. Emma Waddington: Interesting
[00:31:22] Helen Wada: people, it might have been easier to stay with providers that they used to work with because they knew them and they had that trust.
[00:31:31] Helen Wada: But actually, you talk about threats, the threats are coming down, we need to be more commercially focused, we need to improve our margins, we need to see what else is out there, who is doing different things. And so when you're looking for new partners to work with, you need to find those people that, that get you, that trust you to be
[00:31:52] Helen Wada: able to move forward
[00:31:54] Dr Emma Waddington: Yes. Yes, that makes sense. And I guess people are not staying in [00:32:00] their role for as long. So, those established relationships that perhaps we relied on because we'd known someone for so long are, are no longer the same. Like, we're having to form relationships with, with different people more frequently.
[00:32:16] Dr Emma Waddington: So we almost have to be more interpersonally sophisticated
[00:32:22] Helen Wada: But, but ironically, and I smile because I, there's a lot of conversations around AI at the moment. But ironically, the skills that we need to keep these customer relationships going and growing are these interpersonal skills that you and I have spoken about for many years, and they're needed more and more.
[00:32:48] Helen Wada: If you think about what does a good leader look like, a good leader creates space to have those conversations with their team. A good leader helps to prioritize. A good [00:33:00] leader puts their team first
[00:33:04] Helen Wada: and balances it with the commercial pressures. skills are now becoming one of the same, so for me, I think it's a really great opportunity. You then overlay AI on top of it, and all of a sudden there becomes the business case for investing in human-centered leadership, investing in
[00:33:27] Helen Wada: caring without compromise because the skills that you need to drive those human-centered behaviors are the ones that ultimately are going to help us grow our businesses, and that's where the magic can happen
[00:33:41] Dr Emma Waddington: Yep.
[00:33:43] AI And Relationship Repair
[00:33:43] Dr Emma Waddington: Yeah, it is interesting how AI is influencing relationships. I don't know enough about it, but, but a lot of my, clients come to me in session, and they've used AI, to try and make sense of what's happening in their marriage or what's [00:34:00] happening in their, various relationships.
[00:34:02] Dr Emma Waddington: Because, 9 times out of 10, that's what's bringing someone to therapy, is a relationship issue. A relationship at work or a relationship at home, their marriage, their parenting. It's, uh, it's, ... More often than not, that's just the kind of monkey we are. We care deeply about belonging and connecting.
[00:34:22] Dr Emma Waddington: And, because this is such a concern to us, many turn to AI to answer those questions. And, and it's just, I guess, concerning to me because a lot of these skills are not learnt through reading. I give, my clients books and, and podcasts to listen to and, ... But, but a lot of it is done in vivo through the relationship, through practicing, through making mistakes, through ruptures.
[00:34:54] Dr Emma Waddington: If we think about, really good friendships, really good partnerships, great [00:35:00] solid relationships, the number one thing that people need to get really good at is repair. And you can't repair with AI. Well, you can try, but, you don't learn to repair with AI. You learn to repair by having relationships that are intimate enough or long enough where there are ruptures.
[00:35:20] Dr Emma Waddington: Ruptures are inevitable. You hang out with someone long enough, there will be a rupture, and it's how you come back from the rupture. That's what builds trust.
[00:35:29] Helen Wada: Yes
[00:35:29] Dr Emma Waddington: back from ruptures. So, ironically, we're turning to AI to help us with relationships. It's like once upon a time, I remember, people used to go to their priest, to ask about their marriage.
[00:35:42] Dr Emma Waddington: I've had people come to me and say, my priest has been guiding me in my marriage," and I'm thinking, "This is Catholic." they've never been married. How can they ... It don- you don't have to be married to talk about marriage, but they've never had an intimate relationship long enough to have sufficient ruptures to opine on them, as far as I'm concerned.
[00:35:59] Dr Emma Waddington: And it feels the [00:36:00] same with sort of the advent of AI, and yet that is what everybody, a lot of people are turning to as a source of wisdom and knowledge relationally. And I think, I caution my clients really to, to take what you need, but really to work at the relationship and figure it out together.
[00:36:18] Dr Emma Waddington: To use the guidance, but to hold it lightly
[00:36:23] Reflect Reframe Repeat
[00:36:23] Helen Wada: And, and I think it comes back to almost where we started, is work on self,
[00:36:29] Helen Wada: Emma.
[00:36:30] Dr Emma Waddington: 嗯。
[00:36:31] Helen Wada: Is when you're... We're all human beings, we're all individuals, and it's like how do we create time, that reset, to work on ourselves, to think about who we are, what we need as individuals, what does our house look like? are we good at?
[00:36:52] Helen Wada: Where, where are we adding value? Because once we start the work on self, and I, I did it through my coach [00:37:00] training, for years and, and I still continue to deepen my knowledge and view of who I am and where I'm going. But through that coaching experience, w- I'd learned much more about myself.
[00:37:15] Dr Emma Waddington: 嗯。
[00:37:15] Helen Wada: and I think, it's just that encouragement for people to pause and think, "Where am I going?
[00:37:21] Helen Wada: What am I doing? And how does this relationship serve me?" And, and c- and, and, and embed it in. It's like a muscle, this reflection process. I talk about review, reflect, reframe, repeat, we have to review what works, what works, what doesn't work. Reflect on it. Why is that?
[00:37:40] Dr Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm, got a great relationship, well, why is that? And if it, if it's not so great, how do you reframe it? What might, how might you look at it differently? And then you have to go again, y- your point about picking things up, about repairing. And often
[00:37:56] Helen Wada: it, it's that where maybe you've [00:38:00] broken a rela- a relationship has broken down, or maybe you lost a pitch or a piece of work, how you go back on that and how you repair that.
[00:38:08] Helen Wada: And ultimately build a trust in the longer term.
[00:38:10] Dr Emma Waddington: Hmm. I agree
[00:38:12] Helen Wada: a, these skills are interlinked
[00:38:15] Dr Emma Waddington: Yeah, and it's a process. It's iterative.
[00:38:19] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:38:19] Dr Emma Waddington: Relationships are, building a relationship at work, building a relationship, a long partnership is, it's an investment
[00:38:31] Helen Wada: Yes. I've loved our convers- We could talk for hours. We have talked for hours on this. I'm so glad that we've finally got an opportunity to have a,
[00:38:39] Helen Wada: a conversation that we can record and put out into the world. Uh, I
[00:38:43] Top Tip And 80th Birthday
[00:38:43] Helen Wada: always ask my guests two things before they leave. What would be your one top tip for listeners, and what would
[00:38:50] Helen Wada: be a question for them to reflect on?
[00:38:56] Dr Emma Waddington: So I think given where the conversation has gone, perhaps [00:39:00] a top tip is really thinking about the rooms in our house. Are we investing in more rooms than just work? So many people spend, an insane amount of time at work. But even within work, are we just investing in one part of ourselves?
[00:39:15] Dr Emma Waddington: Is there a creative part? Is there a community part? Just making sure that, yeah, there is more to us than simply delivering at work. Invest in those relationships, invest in those hobbies. And if you don't have any, I have so many people who just don't have hobbies. Go out there and learn to play. Learn to have fun, learn to have some lightness.
[00:39:38] Dr Emma Waddington: So that's, um, that's I think is important for us to always be reflecting, and that changes. And then a question to ourselves, I guess-
[00:39:52] Dr Emma Waddington: Often, in therapy we do this 80th birthday party question. When I'm 80 and I'm looking back on my [00:40:00] life, what will I be most proud of, and what will I regret the most? Those are two questions. But in
[00:40:08] Helen Wada: You allow
[00:40:09] Dr Emma Waddington: birthday party, just really imagine looking back on your life and thinking, "What will I be most proud of and what would I regret?"
[00:40:18] Dr Emma Waddington: And use that as a sort of lighthouse to help you guide you
[00:40:26] Helen Wada: Thank you, Emma. So much wisdom in the conversation. Thank you for joining me on HumanWise. Look forward to seeing you soon
[00:40:34] Dr Emma Waddington: Yes. Thank you, Helen. What fun
[00:40:36] Helen Wada: Yes. Bye-bye
[00:40:39] Dr Emma Waddington: Awesome. Bye-bye
[00:40:41] Helen Wada: So I go, "Oh, you there?" Is I always
[00:40:44] Helen Wada: stop
[00:40:44] Dr Emma Waddington: yeah,t goes here