Ep53: Stop Chasing Happiness - Why Happiness Isn’t the Goal and What to Focus on Instead with Frank Martela
What if the fastest route to a happier life is to stop chasing happiness altogether? In this episode of Human Wise, host Helen Wada is joined by Frank Martela, Finnish philosopher, psychology researcher, and author, to explore why “maximising happiness” can backfire and what to do instead. Together they unpack how meaning is built through small daily choices, why knowing your values protects you from external noise, and how high-trust leadership can create more engaged, human workplaces. It is a grounded, thought-provoking conversation about building a good life and a healthier way of working, especially as we head into a new year.
Topics Discussed:
Why “stop chasing happiness” is a more effective philosophy than trying to optimise it
How to build a meaningful life through small choices, connection, and reflection
A practical exercise to identify what you truly enjoy and where your energy goes
The hidden cost of living to meet other people’s expectations
Stable self-esteem, feedback, and how leaders can create safer environments
Why human connection matters even more in the age of AI
Timestamps:
00:00 – 03:03 | Welcome, meeting Frank, and why meaning and happiness belong on Human Wise
03:03 – 05:21 | From studying philosophy to Nokia, then choosing academia
05:21 – 08:32 | Taking the leap towards work you love and making changes safely
08:32 – 11:20 | The book’s genesis and why unlearning matters
11:20 – 15:54 | Stop chasing happiness and a practical exercise to reconnect with what you enjoy
15:54 – 19:31 | Purpose in plural, small acts of kindness, and everyday meaning
19:31 – 23:49 | Expectations, criticism, and building stable self-esteem
23:49 – 27:31 | What leaders need to create human workplaces and why AI cannot replace connection
27:31 – 32:49 | What we can learn from Finland: trust, autonomy, and Nordic leadership
32:49 – 35:17 | Engagement, productivity, and why happiness and performance are linked
35:17 – 39:21 | How leaders grow decision-making in teams and why coaching cultures win
39:21 – 47:09 | Reflection, enjoying the process, final tip and question, where to find Frank and the book
About Frank Martela:
Watch @frankmartela on Youtube
Follow @martela on LinkedIn
Frank Martela, is a internationally recognized expert of motivation, well-being, and sense of meaningfulness and how leaders, organizations, and nations can support them. He is an Assistant Professor at Aalto University, Finland, and has two Ph.D.’s from organizational research (2012 Aalto University) and practical philosophy (2019 University of Helsinki). Besides extensive list of publications in top scientific journals such as Academy of Management Review and Personality and Social Psychology Review he has written for Harvard Business Review, CNBC, and Scientific American Mind. As a leading expert on why Finland is so happy, he has been interviewed by New York Times, CNN, BBC, Fox News, Le Monde, New Scientist, and Discover Magazine, among others.
Frank is an engaging speaker that has spoken in hundreds of companies about engagement and motivation at work and how leaders can make people thrive. He has also given speeches in universities on five continents, including Harvard and Stanford as well as a speech for the New Scientist Big Thinkers series. His latest book is Stop Chasing Happiness – A Pessimist’s Guide To a Good Life (Atlantic Books 2025). His previous book A Wonderful Life – Insights on Finding a Meaningful Experience (HarperCollins 2020) was translated to 29 languages.
Frank’s scientifically grounded but accessible speeches lead you to understand what organizations and states can do to make people thrive in order to unleash the human potential.
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Ep. 53. Frank Martela
[00:00:00]
[00:00:28] Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:28] So welcome to another episode of Human Wise as we rattle towards the end of 2025. I'm delighted to have Frank Marella here with me this morning. Frank joined us always Finland, so it's really great to have you on the show. Fact I met Fat Frank.
[00:00:48] Frank Martela: about a month
[00:00:48] One of the rooms where such great thinkers from all across the world talking about leadership, business, and life.
[00:00:57] And Frank talks about being [00:01:00] happy. He,
[00:01:00]
[00:01:00] uh,
[00:01:00] is a finished philosopher, psychology researcher and author known for your work on meaning. Life, happiness and motivation. So I think when we're talking about being human wise, frank, all of those topics are music to the ears, certainly for me and hopefully to the listeners.
[00:01:17] So welcome to the show.
[00:01:19] Frank Martela: Yeah, great to be
[00:01:20] Helen Wada: Thank for the invitation.
[00:01:22] Frank Marella's Background and Personal Life
[00:01:22] So we talk about being human talk listeners, a little bit more about you, your background, what do you like outside of your work and research?
[00:01:31] Helen Wada: So when I think about you know, being human at work, I think like in my personal case, I think I'm quite much able to like express my humanity through my work because I think. the more thing that I most love doing is like, you know, reading, writing, contemplating on deep questions about life. So I've been like very fortunate that nowadays I can you know, do that almost every, every, every work day. I'm still like, you know, somebody's actually paying me a salary for, you know, sitting in a cafeteria thinking about philosophical questions or writing about them. [00:02:00] So in that sense, that's. I guess like one of the defining characteristics to me this is like, not the thing that I most love doing, but like outside of work, I have like, I'm a father of two, three children, so they're like 13, 11, and nine route right now, so not yet, like, you know, fully teenagers, but like not small children anymore.
[00:02:17] Helen Wada: So in a quite, quite nice age when, where you can do various things with them. And things that I enjoy doing with them is something like, you know, playing football, which I also know enjoy doing myself quite much. And then, you know, in the wintertime, skiing is something that we tend to do together. And because of that, we are actually waiting for the snow to arrive here in Helsinki, which usually at this time of the year we already have that.
[00:02:39] Helen Wada: But this year is just gray and rain. Outside, so looking forward to getting some snow. and being able to do some cross country skiing.
[00:02:48] Frank Martela: Yeah,
[00:02:48] More of the UK culture and the, the rain and the gray clouds is what, what we're used to in London. Frank.
[00:02:55] Frank Martela: you can
[00:02:55] Helen Wada: go to Finn Lapland. They have already snow, but like here in Helsinki, we, we don't have that yet.
[00:02:59] yeah, [00:03:00] still, still waiting, hopefully, hopefully before Christmas.
[00:03:03] Career Journey and Philosophical Pursuits
[00:03:11] And tell me a little bit about your journey to get to where you are. I mean, it's great that you've found a place that you have tru truly found happiness. But where did your career start? How did you get there?
[00:03:15] Helen Wada: Uh, So as an undergrad I was actually studying philosophy.
[00:03:18] Helen Wada: So like, no, that was like, no. my first interest. I already, in high school we had like, you know, several philosophy courses in the high school and I really found them very like interesting and something that I well felt that I want to like pursue this more. And then. After. After then I, but then I also like, you know, did, did another degree in like more in like, you know, business and like programming and this kind of stuff, and that many of my like, you know, study, study frame from there, have like, you know, then started some of their own startup companies, something like that.
[00:03:45] Helen Wada: So that was kinda like another path I was contemplating.
[00:03:48] Frank Martela: But then
[00:03:49] Helen Wada: in the end when I was like graduating and thinking what should be, what should I do next? I
[00:03:53] Transition from Corporate to Academia
[00:03:53] Helen Wada: Actually, I was working in Nokia for, for a, you know, for a short while there. yeah. Nokia, that was like 2005. So Nokia was still like, you know, at its prime and They had like this corporate social responsibility department there. And I felt you know, that would be like, you know, would that be a place where I can combine my interest in like business topics and then like these more ethical topics. So I went there and I actually did my like, master's thesis there while I was, while I was, while I was working there. But then I went to my boss like, you know, several times, Hey, I just read this like very interesting article. I read this interesting book about, no corporate social responsibility. And her response was always that, Hey, that's really interesting, but right now we are in the midst of this project. I don't right now have the time to read that or like, you know, look at that. And then after a couple of months of this, I realized that actually. if I'm in this, if I'm gonna be working in this organization, I never have like the time to actually think deeply about these questions. And then I think okay, what will be the place where I actually have the time to go deeply into these like, you know, fundamental questions about corporate social responsibility or humanity and so forth.
[00:04:56] Helen Wada: And then I realized that probably like [00:05:00] no research and doing a PhD might be. them. Next step where I will be able to do that. And then when I started doing my PhD, I think like already after a few months I realized, hey, this is my thing. This is what I'm gonna be doing in my life. And since that, I've basically never looked back but felt that this is actually the thing that where, which is like most suiting carrier for a person like me.
[00:05:21] It's fascinating because it's quite a big leap, isn't it? You, you've got children now, but taking that leap to doing something and following a passion of yours, what?
[00:05:33] Pursuing Passion and Happiness
[00:05:33] I mean, we'll, we'll get on to talking about, you know, stop chasing happiness and your, your book. You write about all of this in, but people who are listening to this podcast and thinking, you know, I'm in this job, but actually this is my, this is what I really want to do, what would you say to them?
[00:05:50] big.
[00:05:52] Helen Wada: Yeah, so I would say that, you know, that when we think about our work life, it's like, no, it's quite many hours of our adult life that we actually spend at [00:06:00] the workplace. So like, you know, if, if your life happens outside of work and the work is just like, means to get, like, you know, the resources for that, then. That's kinda like bit sad situation in life because like then like quite many of your hours are like wasted. And that was also like, you know, something I was thinking at that moment because I basically had like a business degree and then I was thinking like, okay, if I, like if I go to like do a PhD, I'm gonna get like, you know, some money for that, but it's gonna be like, I'm gonna be like, you know, earning quite much less in the next coming years than, than I would if I would just go into the industry with that kind of degree.
[00:06:31] Helen Wada: So it was like a conscious choice that, okay, if I go here I will like, you know, give up. Earning this and this much salary and instead like, you know, earning quite much less. But I thought that, okay, actually in my case, it's still worth it because then it means that, you know, my hours that I spent at work will be hours that actually I feel that, hey, this is something I, I really would want to do and this is something I will do even if I wouldn't be paid for this.
[00:06:53] Helen Wada: So in that sense, I felt that, you know. When you're able to do something that you actually love doing, you know, then your work, the [00:07:00] hours are hours where you're able to be human, you know, experts, you're humanity rather than something that has to be weighted wait for happen to happen, like outside the workplace.
[00:07:09] it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I, I've been running my business now about four years. And I left, you know, a very senior position in one of the big forwards as a sales leader. And it was a big decision, but I was 45 and I guess I got to the point where I thought, I don't do it now. I will never do it.
[00:07:27] That's not always the case. And I was lucky that my husband and I are a team, but I always say to people, you know, work out what you can do rather than what you can't. Now, you know, we'll talk about your route to happiness in a moment.
[00:07:41] What is it that you can do on the side? What is it you can do in parallel?
[00:07:44] Practical Advice for Finding Happiness
[00:07:44] Could you do, you know, a a four day a week, for example, and pursue a passion project if you have that along the side whilst you earn money, because it's a big thing to do, particularly if you are later in life and you've got family commitments and responsibilities, but [00:08:00] there's.
[00:08:00] Helen Wada: a.
[00:08:00] Frank Martela: that's
[00:08:01] Helen Wada: that situation, of course, like if you can do like some small adjustments first and know, or try out it like in a, in a more, as a side, side process or something like that to get a bit of a sense, is this actually the thing that you want to leap into?
[00:08:12] Helen Wada: Then that probably helps to make these big changes. So like, you know, just jumping from one to another. It's like, you know, usually. quite hard, but like then if you are able to do four hour our four day work week and then start out like doing it one day a week and then see how it like carries on and then do the leap, then it's probably much easier to do it like that.
[00:08:32] and it's interesting that you say that, you know, you moved from Nokia and to pursue projects around humanity and happiness and, and things like that. When I talk about being human at work, you know, there's something for me about not only how we are commercially but actually that we take a coaching approach to leadership.
[00:08:52] What does that mean? It's about, it's about being here, it's about being curious. It's about leading with integrity, with authenticity. [00:09:00] Why did you feel the need to step out of Nokia to do that rather than pursuing that within the business?
[00:09:11] Helen Wada: So, as I said, I guess like it was about feeling that. What I like most enjoy doing is like actually have half the time to actually read these books.
[00:09:19] Helen Wada: You know, I always, enjoy when I, when I have to go to like, know, hel, university of Hel has this like new library where there's like, no, these books on like this in the cell seller, seller. And then you go there and you feel that, okay, you catch a book from there and you feel that okay, probably nobody has, like in the last 20 years, nobody has touched it book.
[00:09:35] Helen Wada: And then you take it out from there. I always feel like, hey, now I'm like not really able to do something that I'm passionate about. So I guess like I felt that just that the role in the Nokia would be like too operational that there wouldn't be enough time for like this deep theoretical thing and that I felt that it still would be like the thing that I'm most passionate about.
[00:09:54] And tell us about the genesis. I've got chasing happiness, [00:10:00] a good life. Frank, tell us about the origins of that.
[00:10:05] Writing and, and the book that's available.
[00:10:08] Meaningful Life and Small Acts of Kindness
[00:10:08] Helen Wada: Yeah, so I'd be like writing like a couple of books before, before that, then they have been like quite much about, you know, these are the things that you need to live a good life.
[00:10:16] Helen Wada: You know, like these are the basic human needs and how these are the ways to satisfy them. But then at some point I started to realize that, you know, quite often the reason people are not doing these things might not be that, you know, they don't know that what would be the good things to do in life, but rather that there's like various obstacles on the way and there barriers like, you know, Ways of thinking that actually extend in the way of like. Going towards this, steps more self express, expressive way of living and working. And because of that, I felt that, you know, this book will be like more addressing those things. So if you look at like, you know, chapters of the book, most of them start with like, you know, stop doing this, stop doing this, stop doing this.
[00:10:53] Helen Wada: And then I think it was it like nine chapters like that, that then all the three last chapters were about like, start doing this [00:11:00] instead. So this book was like more about unlearning than learning in a way that, you know, unlearning Ha, bad habits of thinking or the habits of thinking that are in the way of us being able to more able to pursue what we want in life and then like through that, like the pre-op space to make these more, you know, self-selected choices in life.
[00:11:20] I, I love that, and I think it's, it's something that I talk about a lot with the leaders that I, I work with. You know, always trying to do more, do more global, be different, but actually for me, you cannot do different tasks or activities. Unless you free up something, unless you lead in a different way, unless you delegate more.
[00:11:41] So I think, you know, what you talk about there is so important 'cause it's what are we gonna stop doing in the lives that we lead? We are constantly on and we need to, to build these muscles to say, you know, case in point, I'm doing too much. And then the run up to Christmas, it's crazy. So what are we not [00:12:00] gonna do and how do we prioritize it?
[00:12:02] So, so those listeners that are in
[00:12:06] Frank Martela: your
[00:12:06] Your key
[00:12:07] stop things to stop, what would you?
[00:12:11] Helen Wada: So one of them, of course, like no is already the title, like Stop Chasing Happiness. And with that I mean that round There's quite often when we think about what should be like, you know, pursuing in life.
[00:12:21] Helen Wada: Quite many people say that, you know, like we should like, you know, optimize, or maximize our own happiness. And I'm actually saying that, you know, that's. that's. Usually like a bit like actually counterproductive goal in life so that those people who are most trying to maximize their happiness actually tend to end up more unhappy than other people who care a bit less about their own happiness because you're, if you're like constantly trying to optimize your own happiness, you're always thinking that whatever situation you are in, you're thinking that, okay. this situation made me quite happy. Why didn't it make it even happier? What would it take to make me even happier?
[00:12:53] Helen Wada: So you might, be, yeah, so you might be in a workplace and think that, okay, this work had made me make me happy for 20 years, but [00:13:00] would there be another job that would make me even happier? Or this spouse, she has made me happy for like 20 years. What would be there be another spouse who would maybe even happier and this kinda like, no constant like no contemplating about other options makes you unable to be actually satisfied and enjoy whatever you already have in your life.
[00:13:18] Frank Martela: Yeah, think
[00:13:20] that's, that's a really, really important point and one. To reflect on, actually fine, particularly as we come to the end of the year and, you know, looking forward it, it's not easy, right? So the, we are listening, we're saying, okay, so, so how do I need to train my brain? What is it in today's world where we are constantly fueled with advertisements or you could be doing this or this is out there and social media.
[00:13:51] What is it? Because maybe I can deal with some of this medicine as well, right? Totally. What can we do? What can we do practically to stop [00:14:00] chasing happiness? To focus on where we're at right now?
[00:14:04] Helen Wada: I guess of course like the more you don't know who you are yourself, the more you don't know what are your own values and what are your own interests. The more you are then like chasing these like external things that the more you are following whatever like advertisement are, say, saying that you should be doing. So in that sense, one thing is just, you know, get to know yourself will be, I think like that's like one thing that helps you become like more strong against these kind of messages and against like various. External influences. So in that sense, stopping and reflecting who I am, what, what are the actually things that I'm most enjoying doing. Like just very simple like exercise that, that me and my couple of my colleagues have been quite often using is give people like one like empty paper and a pen and then say like, no. Write this paper as many things that you enjoy doing just for the sake of the activity itself. You know, not, not for like, no external praise, not for like, you know, getting some money for it or anything like that.
[00:14:54] Helen Wada: But that just, just what are the things that you're like, you know, most enjoy doing? And then they write down, you know, in my [00:15:00] case I would write, you know, cross country skiing. I would write like writing, reading into the list and you know, other things. And then after that, they just have like, you know, put a number after each item.
[00:15:11] Helen Wada: Like whether they're able to do it, like, you know. As much as they want. Then they put a tree if they feel that they're able to do it somewhat, but like not as much as they want. They put the two and then one for those things that you know, are of the least, but they feel that they're actually not able to do at all in their current life situation. And then after that, you know, start reflecting what kind of changes in their life could lead them to have like, you know, more trees and less ones in their list. So that's like, you know, something that, you know, already like gets people a bit more reflective about what are the things that they enjoy doing and. then they can start to think at how could I know actually pursue these things as part of my work or outside of my work? And what would be like the best ways to make sure that, you know, one is actually able to live a life where there's more of those things that one actually enjoys doing.
[00:15:54] love that and I think it kind of links to the, the human that I talk about in human wise. That said, [00:16:00] my book publishes for the first time. I'm, I'm first time author Facts, so I'm in total admiration of anybody. That's wonderful. Thank you. Not quite there, but almost. And I talk about the age of the human is how you show up.
[00:16:11] And for me that is absolute. That's tapping into your values. What's important to you, why are you good at what you And a bit like you working with groups and you ask these questions, we never say, what really,
[00:16:30] why am I doing what I'm And.
[00:16:34] Feel my purpose or, or does it not? And I like what you said there, just picking up on work or it could be outside of It's for me, I think people get too, I'm not, and I generalize now and I generalize, but sometimes thinking you have to have a complete golden threat runs through your values, your passions, what you do on a day-to-day basis. [00:17:00] Saving the world, solving all the problem.
[00:17:06] Frank Martela: purpose,
[00:17:08] Meaningful for communities, meaningful life
[00:17:13] work, I'd be interested in your view, but they don't have to be completely interlinked. You can fulfill different parts of your human happiness in different parts of your life.
[00:17:26] Helen Wada: I, I tend to say that you know, that instead of like, like finding one purpose for life, we should be like looking like, you know, purposes for life in plural.
[00:17:34] Helen Wada: Because like all of us have several of those, you know, some of them like, you know, might be related to having, like having your family or having your friends and doing something or your hobbies and some of them might be more related to work. And I remember when I was like writing my last book, like the previous book, which was about meaningful life. Then I was talking with Laura King, who is one of like leading. Authors of like in within psychology on like the topic of meaning in life. And when I was mentioning at that I'm writing this book, she was said that at, [00:18:00] in your book, don't tell people that they don't have like meaning in their life because she said that No, she has been studying the topic for 20 years and in mo that she has like realized that in most people, most of the time already actually feel that their life is meaningful and it's not meaningful because of the big things.
[00:18:15] Helen Wada: You know, that, you know that they're like, no solving the, you know. Like queering cancer or like solving the world hunger problem or whatever. But it's more about this small things in life, having few people in your life that you care about, who care about you, being able to like, you know, help them. Being able to use your talents, use your, like, your skills in your work or in your hobbies.
[00:18:34] Helen Wada: And all of these, like small, small things are where, where the meaningfulness usually comes from. Of course if on top of that you also have like some big purpose or something like that, it's great. But I guess like for most people it's usually about the kinda like quite everyday things that actually give quite much me for their lives. Just remember like one study, which was like showing that asking people to do five small acts of kindness every Tuesday for a couple of weeks at, at their workplace. [00:19:00] So every, every Tuesday they had like just stop and think that okay, should I, you know, bring a cup of coffee to my colleague, you know, or whatever small things that they could do. And after a few, few weeks, they start to feel that they work feels more meaningful to them just because of these small acts of kindness.
[00:19:15] It's
[00:19:15] interesting, isn't it? That's one of the, the sort of the small dos, I guess, rather than the, the, the do nots. What else? What else should we stop doing? What else they, what else do we have? We got, what are the key things?
[00:19:31] Overcoming External Expectations
[00:19:31] Helen Wada: I think like you know one big obstacle of goal for many people is that you know, there are too much like focusing on meeting other people's expectations. You know, that
[00:19:38] Helen Wada: your parents expect you, you to become a certain kind of per person or people in your community expect people to behave in a certain way and so forth. And quite much, much of our time we are then like focusing on, you know, fulfilling those expectations. And because of that then, you know, it end, be like end up unfulfilled because we. Forget to connect, like, you know, forget to connect with [00:20:00] who we are as a person. So I think like that's like one of the big obstacles that if you're able to get past that, that's already like a quite a big win. And of course, like it's very human, you know, it's. humans are inbuilt into that, you know, where our survival has always been dependent on, you know, being part of the tribe or being part of the group. You know, if you go back to a couple of million years when the humans were living like, you know, as hunter gatherers around, around the world, you know, if that, if the pack or like the tribe was like abandoning you, your chances of survival We're like quite, quite small. So because of that, there's like quite strong inbuilt system in US humans that we are always monitoring the social environment. Trying to make sure that the people around us, you know, accept us as part of the group rather than, you know, reject us. And that then like reflects on our like smaller and bigger life choices all the time. And I guess like there's of course like no, no gain, getting around that completely, but we should be kind like more, you know, selective about whose opinion we care about or not. So I like one, [00:21:00] one friend who is like in politics, in in Finnish national politics. And you know, if, if you're in that kind of job, whatever this is, you do, you do, there's always gonna be like, you know, some people who like, you know, are gonna hate you for making that decision. So my advice to him was that, okay, you should, you should think about who are the few people, who are the few politicians that you are kinda like actually look up to, even though they will be like on the other side of the political spectrum. and you know, listen to them, you know, listen to, because like, if you, you cannot like shut your, shut your ears completely from criticism because like then you start to make stupid decisions as a politician.
[00:21:32] Helen Wada: So you should be listening to the criticism, but you should like to be quite careful whose criticism you are listening to. If you're listening to all, all of the shouting that happens nowadays on social media, that's not, that's gonna be good for your mental health. But if you think that who are the people on the other side of the political spectrum. who you can still respect despite your disagreements. Then when they're, then, when they're like, you know, saying something, you should listen to them, but like, then ignore all the other voices.
[00:21:59] [00:22:00] It, it comes back to sort of staying in your lane, doesn't it? And really knowing who you are, why you are good at what you do.
[00:22:07] Helen Wada: Exactly.
[00:22:08] And, being able to, to take the insight comments from others, but actually have your own mind to offer your perspective and stay true to your call. 'cause that, that's what I'm hearing Frank, is it's when we are wobbling and I, I see that so often with the coach that I do, you know, people are incredibly open and vulnerable in, in the sessions that we have.
[00:22:28] Clearly you are right. A lot of the, the worry, the uncertainty. The art stems from what they think maybe other people think that they should be doing rather than what they really want to be doing themselves.
[00:22:46] Frank Martela: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Helen Wada: Uh, exactly. I think that that's quite often where, where the uncertainties come from and I was like, I guess like it's about this sense of self-esteem Like I guess when we think about self-esteem, quite often we think about le go high or low self-esteem,
[00:22:59] Helen Wada: but I think [00:23:00] like more important distinction is between like this more needy or unneeded or like you know, stable self-esteem.
[00:23:06] Helen Wada: So some people have like more stable self-esteem, you know, that they can take criticism you know, still retain this basic sense that I'm still worthy of being loved and I'm still like, you know, have, I'm still like worthy as a human being. Other people, their like, self estimate is more, more like dependent on whatever is the latest, latest comment that somebody has said to them.
[00:23:25] Helen Wada: If somebody has said something positive to them, then they feel like no great about themselves. If somebody says something negative, they feel like bad about themself. So I guess like that's. Part of the equation is trying to get to this more stable self-esteem where your self-esteem is not, not so like dependent on whatever you just heard about somebody, say yourself, but you can actually take the criticism, but still feel that you're worthy of being loved.
[00:23:49] How does this link, because we're talking very much about the individual right now, but how does this link over, in your view, to the corporate world? You know, where you have. [00:24:00] Different motivations, different ambitions. You have to be reporting either to external shareholders or or internal shareholders at privately owned businesses or, or even government organizations.
[00:24:12] How can you, how do you see the crossover of your study and research to what is needed to make organizations more human?
[00:24:21] Helen Wada: So I guess like of course like if you want to get like people like engaged at work, it has to stop, start with like you yourself being engaged, that, you know, if you're the boss and you yourself actually don't believe in the cause of the company, it's very hard to be authentic and, you know, make other people believe in the cause.
[00:24:36] Helen Wada: So in that sense, I think that, you know, there's research showing that, you know, for example, the sense of autonom feeling that, you know, you actually endorse whatever you're doing. It stands to like, you know, Ripple down in our organizations that if the boss is more auto like autonomous, if the boss feels that Hey, this is something that I really enjoy doing, that like that feeling, then usually it's carried on to their sub orates.
[00:24:58] The Importance of Authentic Leadership
[00:24:58] Helen Wada: And then on the other hand, if the boss is like not feeling that, Hey, this is. Not worth doing at all, but you know, I'm just here, here for the ride. Then that also like carries on to their subordinates. So authenticity is like important in, in that role. And then it starts with like, you know, you are yourself knowing why you are doing whatever you are doing.
[00:25:16] Helen Wada: So that's like one thing. And then another thing is of course, like, know, if you want to like get people like engaged, you have know what are the things that actually they value and what are they in their interests. So if the, if, if you are in a, in a leadership position, you should like get to know the employees, get to know them so well that you know what is kind, of, you know what are the things that motivate this person.
[00:25:35] Helen Wada: What are the things that motivate this person so you can then, like, you know, trying to help them to find the motivation to you do, the work that they need to be doing
[00:25:47] AI and Human Connection in the Workplace
[00:25:47] To people in the world of ai.
[00:25:48] Frank Martela: you know, we've.
[00:25:49] Spoken so much about AI in 2025, and I'm sure that will continue into 2026, but I'm such a believer that actually we need to, as well [00:26:00] as exploring what the technology can do for we need to dial up on our ability to be connected and curious to lead with empathy. And also to challenge people in a safe way.
[00:26:16] This isn't about being solved. It's about creating cultures where people feel they can
[00:26:22] Frank Martela: Yeah.
[00:26:23] they can't
[00:26:25] Helen Wada: Yeah, so AI can be like very helpful like in all topics related to information like, you know, like, you know, gathering information, synthesizing information and all, all of that.
[00:26:34] Helen Wada: But at the same time, being at work, there's also this like human side, you know, that you need to have this sense of. Community sense of connected with, with others. And that's something that AI cannot actually provide to us. You know, Even if the AI would say to me that, you know, I care about you, you know, in the end, it, it actually doesn't, it says, you know, it's just putting words together because like that, that it feels that, or it like, you know, predicts that this is the thing to be said in this situation. Or if this AI says to you that [00:27:00] you know, Hey, don't worry, I'm being in the same situation. I know how you are feeling. You know, that's, that's not authentic. But when, when you are like, you know, colleague says the same thing that the thing. to you then actually it's more authentic. So we are gonna be like, you know, whatever the AI can help us like do our work better in many ways.
[00:27:17] Helen Wada: But at the same time, there's gonna be still the need for sense of community where it's like no deep commitment to the work usually arises from, so we, we need as humans and we need as humans to connect with each other. Also in the age of ai,
[00:27:31] We,
[00:27:32] we absolutely do. And.
[00:27:34] Learning from Finland's High-Trust Work Culture
[00:27:50] We, we've all heard, you know, I sit here in London, but we've all heard about the finished way of working. You know, your, the continuation of Finland being the top rankings of global happiness in the way in which they live, work focused with purpose. Tell us, how can we learn from Finland fact?
[00:27:55] How can the rest of us learn from what Finland does Well.[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Helen Wada: Hmm. I think like one of the key like things in Finnish society, it's like it's a very high trust society.
[00:28:05] Helen Wada: It's not like, you know, people tend to trust each other and that's one of like no secrets behind why Finland is doing so well on this, like happiness rankings, but also like why Finnish workplace is usually like places where people are given more autonomy because the bosses are kind like under lead leaders are kind of like trusting that the employees are wanting to do things in a good way. So in that sense, I would say like one thing, kin thing is like whatever workplace you're building, make sure it's like a high trust environment where. You know, people, people are, people are, can, like given, given the signal that from, from the like leadership that, hey, we want to trust you. And then like, given more freedom and autonomy and at the same time, you know, then, because usually when people are given autonomy, when they're, when they feel that hey, they're trusted, they want to be trustworthy, they want to show that they're like no worthy or whatever trust is given to them. So I think that, you know, there's like basically two types of like ways of leading people to do things. One of them is this traditional command and control model where [00:29:00] I as a boss come in and say that, Hey, this is the things that you need to be doing and now I'm gonna monitor you to make sure that you do exactly what I told you do. While the other model is more this, kinda like this inspiring and serve model where the job. The kind of top manager is more like tell what is the direction where we are heading, what is like the thing that we are want, wanted to go towards? And then give like, new people, freedom to themselves, make their choices, how to get there.
[00:29:25] Helen Wada: And then more be in a supportive role where they come in and say that, Hey, this is the goal. This, these are your task. How can you, I help you to succeed better in your own role.
[00:29:36] I liking that.
[00:29:37] Coaching and Leadership Styles
[00:29:37] It, it's fascinating listening to you there because I liken it to a, a coaching approach, Frank, honestly, you know, this is again, something I talk about in human rights. I talk about commercial focus, so my mindset is all about a commercial focus. So our commercial focus is having that North star, setting the goal, knowing our success, knowing where we want to go, knowing what's important to us.
[00:30:02] We have to be commercial in the way in which we operate. That is the world. When you take a coaching approach, when you talk about leading, lead it as coach, it's actually supporting people. So I talk a lot about sales. I talk a lot about willing work and.
[00:30:19] Frank Martela: and.
[00:30:20] You will have seen it as much as I have done in, in your career about, you know, this is the target.
[00:30:25] We need 10 million or 12 million or 20 million or whatever it is. Go, go, go, go. And it's everything that's about these Why haven't we done it? Why haven't we done it? We need to do more. You know, that's the constant and that's why I love the title of your book. You know, stop chasing it. We need to do more because sometimes the more you push.
[00:30:43] The less you actually get. 'cause people feel disengaged. But actually if you are taking a coaching approach to those conversations, how are you hitting your targets? What's getting in the way? How can I help? Where are you stuck? Let's, you are [00:31:00] asking questions, you're being curious, you know, a qualitive manner to help unblock things that get to think differently.
[00:31:08] Really different approach, but one that ultimately gets.
[00:31:13] Frank Martela: better
[00:31:14] outcomes because the people on the ground can then do something their way. Right.
[00:31:20] Helen Wada: I, I wrote, I wrote this like, you know, piece for like Harvard Business Review some time ago, like about Nordic minimalist leadership and there there was like kinda like arguing that, or like one example I used was like this I Kanan who is the CEO Supercell, which is this Finnish like mobile game company and actually one of the most of a mobile game companies in the world.
[00:31:39] Helen Wada: I think they have like. Six different games that have like crossed more than 1 billion in, in their like, you know, portfolio and it Kaan. in, in many interviews he always says that, you know, he wants to be like the least powerful CEO in the world so that, you know, that his task as a CEO is like, you know, make sure that, you know, he's able to grow the people to the degree that they need less and less him [00:32:00] like to make decisions for them because they're like, you know, grown into the role. So, and know what is the vision of the company.
[00:32:06] Helen Wada: So to the, to the degree that they, they don't need, like, you know, his advice. So in paradoxically, kinda like he has succeeded in his role. The, the less people need him, the better he has like succeeded in his own role. so I think like, and, and he was he was said that, you know, when, when asked like, you know, how, how he does that, he said that, okay, we have like very ambitious targets.
[00:32:23] Helen Wada: We only. Produce these very, like, top level games, then I was trying to like recruit the best people. Then I put them in the teams and, you know, the teams are very independent. The teams can do almost anything they want as long as, you know, they, they remember what is like the ambition level where they're heading. And as long as they do that, you know, they, he gives them like very much freedom to do all the decisions by themselves about what kind of games they're like, you know, trying to produce and what, how they're doing things.
[00:32:49] It's very much like, and I, I call it in the book, but Daniel Daniel Pink talks about the quiet power, you know, lifting people up and actually. [00:33:00] Exploring yourself as a leader. It's not just the more you do, it's, it's about how you need to be. And, and again, that's something I talk about as people are, are moving through organizations, it becomes, you are moving from doing to being and elevating in a way that you are sort of conducting an rather than playing the instrument.
[00:33:24] You may, you've still got your ability to play the instrument. You need to have a different view of the world and you need to be lifting up at 50,000 feet to look at what success means as an organization.
[00:33:36] The Role of Happiness and Engagement at Work
[00:33:36] But coming back side of your book, what does happiness mean for our people? And I think we can't have one without the other.
[00:33:43] Frank Martela: other.
[00:33:45] Helen Wada: In the workplace, I tend to like talk about customer this work engagement, which like, I think like when people like, because when we think about, you know, positive we can feel like this high arousal and low arousal, positive emotions, you know, feeling that, you know, sense of harm or sense of safety is like, no more [00:34:00] low arousal, positive emotion. But then there's also this, also these more high arousal ones, which are about like being feeling energized and excited about something. And I think that in the workplace, you know, Produce in that kind like sense of engagement is something, if you're able to produce that as a leader, then that's good for like, you know, people's wellbeing, of course, because people want, want to be in that state.
[00:34:19] Helen Wada: But it's also good for the resource of the company because 10 people are excited to carry on whatever mission you're on or and fulfill whatever goals they have in their role. So I think that in that sense, kinda like happiness and productivity are not like, you know, something that are like no existing. Separate from each other in the workplace, but when you're able to support people's sense of engagement, you're actually producing both at the same time.
[00:34:41] Frank Martela: time.
[00:34:43] So as we look forward.
[00:34:43] Frank Martela: forward, we're
[00:34:44] We're almost at the end of 2025. We are looking forward into 2026, and you're thinking, do you know what this, this does make sense to me, but we, we've gotta hit these targets. I've got these ambitions for next year. But I do recognize that [00:35:00] bringing humanity back into the workplace is absolutely, essentially so many of us have been online and we are seeing people come back into the offices more and more with flexible working.
[00:35:10] would you say to those people that are setting up 2026? What do we need to be thinking about?
[00:35:17] Helen Wada: Yeah. it's like of course, like, you know, building this kind of culture where people are independent and may able to make these right choices. It, it can take some chart time, especially if you're, if people are used to this like, the. know, traditional model where they always go to the boss to ask for questions.
[00:35:30] Helen Wada: But like one example is like that, this two a Ian, and one is who was like this CEO of this, ris, which was like one of the CEOs I was interviewing for this piece that I mentioned, And he would say like, you know, that he realized at one point that all of his time as a CEO E goes to the fact thing that of people, lying behind his door, people asking, Hey. We are in a situation, what choice should we make? And then he said that, okay, let's make choice A rather than choice B. And then he realized that this is not very sustainable. So he decided that instead of like telling people what, what they should be doing, he only [00:36:00] tells them how he's himself will be thinking in a similar situation. So when people came in and asked, Hey, should we do this or this, then he was saying that, okay, if I will be in your position, then I will probably look at these financial numbers. I will probably like check on this and this, and then I will think about this and these factors. And then he said that, okay, now you know how I would make the decision.
[00:36:19] Helen Wada: Now go out and make the decision and I will support you, whatever the decision is. And it took a bit longer time to do that, like in, in the moment because like, you know, he had to explain things rather than just say that, you know, do this. But he, then the line behind his door started like, get like thinner because like then next time people were thinking about in a similar situation, they didn't come, come, need to come to him for advice, but they already knew how to make the decision.
[00:36:43] Helen Wada: So in that sense, he was saying that sometimes it's a bit frustrating this kind of company that, you know, 10 people are making their own decisions. Sometimes the decisions are not the same that he would himself have made. But then he had like, you know, be humbled and realize that actually. When, when some, when people made a decision and one one year passed, [00:37:00] some of the decisions turned, turned out to be the wrong ones.
[00:37:02] Helen Wada: But some of them turned out to be like, you know, the decisions that were much better than he himself would've done in this situation. That if he, he was like, say that. No, there was situation where he was think that, okay, I would've said no to that proposal. but they went on and did it, and now actually it's like a very big, big part of our success as a company. So he felt that in the end fact this, this responsible company where everybody is thinking what is good for the company, everybody's making decisions in the end, Le leads to much, much better outcomes than, than the situation where everything goes through. The boss and the bosses decision are the final ones. So he felt that no, build this culture took time. But in the end it was like, you know quite good for the kinda success of the company and the company being able to do things that they couldn't be doing if everything would've gone through him.
[00:37:46] it, it's interesting. It does. It comes back to, it is slightly different, but a coaching culture. Which is what I advocate. You know, I, I advocate a commercial coaching because actually we do need to be, commercial coaching is [00:38:00] not just about leading others. We need to be really focused on the commercial aspects of what we're doing.
[00:38:05] But what you've described there, it's the belief in having belief in others. So, as a coach, I have a belief that everybody that I work has the answers within them. Now, there are certain elements of. Because I've got 30 years in not corporate world, I'll sometimes take my coaching hat off and, and give, as you've just shared there, you know, if it was me or in this situation, this happened, but you're kind of carefully boxing I I asking questions by getting people to think for themselves. It's not a hit. The difference is the behavior change. And I think that's what we struggle to see sometimes when you just tell somebody what the answer They, they know what the answer is that time, but they don't know how to think through the problem if it happens again or if the situation is slightly different.
[00:38:58] And I think if we take that coaching [00:39:00] approach, which does take a little bit longer, it requires time. And when
[00:39:06] Frank Martela: to
[00:39:06] get under the skin to say, well, well, what do you think, you know, taking a different point of view, if you were the customer, what would you be thinking right now? What options do you have to How can you.
[00:39:21] Reflections on Leadership and Success
[00:39:21] Frank Martela: Yeah,
[00:39:21] Helen Wada: I would think that good leaders are coaches, like good leaders have to be like coach. Chase towards their e employees. And I think like, like for example, the servant leadership approach, like one of the founders of that approach, I don't even Robert Greenleaf, he had like this, like saying that, you no, one, one simple test to think about whether you're a servant leader. is Think about do those people, do you serve, do they grow as Persians? So if you're able to do that, then you are already like a servant leader. So I think like, no, that. And of course like if the, if you're able to grow them as a Persians, then you are approaching them as a coach in a way.
[00:39:51] Helen Wada: So in that sense, I would think that, you know, good leaders nowadays have to be to a certain degree, coaches.
[00:39:56] Yeah, absolutely. The secret to finish happiness. What [00:40:00] else is the secret to finish happiness, Frank? Apart from having snow at Christmas?
[00:40:05] Frank Martela: can Yeah,
[00:40:06] Helen Wada: let's hope for, hope for that. At least that would make me happy personally. I'm, I'm sure about that. But yeah, so trusting in people is quite big part of Dan, like Giving Dan, like freedom and autonomy, that's quite
[00:40:17] Helen Wada: big part of that. I guess like Finnish people also have like a bit of this like stoic attitude to the towards life that you know, that they can also like, you know, when something bad happens, they're like able to accept the fact that, okay, now the hap, this happened. It's like too late. to Like cry about it now. So let's think about what is this new situation and how we can make best of that. So I think that that kind of attitude is also, which is quite important for our. sense of wellbeing and happiness.
[00:40:43] I, I think you're right. I think this. Something I talk about is, is the importance of reflection. It's come up a lot in conversations I've had recently, but taking time to review what you've done. What have you learned? Did it work? Did it not go work? And how might you [00:41:00] reframe it? You know, if it didn't go so well.
[00:41:03] Well, how might I reframe that? What did I learn from And then you go again. It comes right back to that beginning of reflecting on self,
[00:41:11] Frank Martela: Yeah,
[00:41:11] on what happened and. I think there's a lot of wasted time where people beat themselves up. Something didn't go perfectly, whereas actually in the world we are in and the way in which it's moving so quickly
[00:41:28] and create the space for us
[00:41:30] Frank Martela: to then
[00:41:31] we learn from it. We learn and we go again.
[00:41:34] Helen Wada: And I think that you, you could, you can never like control the outcomes, like in life in general, but also in business. You know, you can only like control the process. You know, you can, you can make certain choices and then sometimes the environment, you know, sometimes something random happens in the environment.
[00:41:46] Helen Wada: There's like no global pandemic or whatever, and you know that it can, it can like, you know, mix everything up and, and. example, there was like one, one company I was like you know, working with, and they, they happened to buy, buy a factory, which was able to like [00:42:00] produce this like, you know, de sanitizing, like you know thing,
[00:42:02] Helen Wada: which of course became like the big thing when the like, like the pandemic started and they, it, they made like, you know, the biggest profit ever and know, like, you all of that. And it was not like no strategy, it was just like the pure luck that they just had happened to fi, buy, buy a factory, which was able to buy something that became very relevant at the moment. So in that sense, I guess like if you're a business leader and then it can, it can of course go the opposite way.
[00:42:25] Helen Wada: For many other companies, it went the opposite way that whatever strategy they had, like went to pieces when the pandemic hit, hit the world. So I guess like. the. Best leaders I usually when I talk with them, they usually like tend to be like quite humble about their own success. That they also said that, okay, yes, we did this and these choices at the same time.
[00:42:41] Helen Wada: We were lucky because like the world turned out to be this way. For example, this Ill cap and CEO of Supercell, he always emphasized, okay, we just happen to be in the right place. In the right place. time with our, with our games that we were one of the first companies which went like mobile first in their game developing our program. If they would've like started the [00:43:00] company too late, two years later, it might, might have been like much tougher, much tougher situation to become as big players after they be became now that they were a bit lucky with the timing.
[00:43:09] You have to make your own timing. You have to make your own luck, and you have to have the conversations to put you out there. I, I talk about that with people talking about sales and winning work all the time. If you are not having conversations with your customers, somebody else will be, and it's about.
[00:43:26] Coming back to your course, I'm talking about what's important to you. I wouldn't be here. I, I just had a photo pop up this morning and four years ago I was writing my thesis for my coaching diploma. Did I have an idea about writing a book at that time? Absolutely not. Did I have an idea to start a business?
[00:43:44] Yes. Did I believe in something? And you fast forward the clock. Three and a half, four years. And now as we approach next year, what's coming out human wise? How to lead from within and sell with confidence. We are [00:44:00] absolutely talking about being human at work. You know? Yes, AI will be there, but for me it's like this is the it, but you have to hold onto your gut.
[00:44:08] You have to trust your thinking and start somewhere. 'cause I think. This is the, one of the keys to, to having this like, goodness, it's a rocky boat, right? I mean, it's not easy,
[00:44:20] Helen Wada: Yeah. The key to happiness. quite much like being able to enjoy the process because like no. Yes, you should have like some ambitious goals and ambitious outcomes that you're like person towards, but you will never be sure whether you get there or not. You can only like control the process and if you're able to enjoy the process itself, then you are already able to find quite much happiness on the way and no matter whether. Eventually will be successful. And of course like, you know, if you're, if you do the right things, if you make the right choices, you're much more prone to become successful in whatever you do. But still, like, you know, being able to focus more on the process rather than just the outcome I think one of the keys to being happiness or already on the way [00:45:00] there.
[00:45:01] Final Thoughts and Takeaways
[00:45:01] Well, it's certainly a good reminder for me, Frank, and so I'm delighted to have had the conversation with you this morning and, and hopefully for everybody else listening as well. I'm conscious of time. These conversations always fly by. I'd like to leave the listeners with one top tip. As a coach, I like to lead them with a question to reflect on.
[00:45:21] So think about all your writing, your research, our conversation this morning. What would be your one top.
[00:45:27] Helen Wada: There's like I tend to say like, you know, that meaning in life comes from like me being able to connect with other people and connecting with yourself. So I, I would at, I at that probably will mean, I think that think about like, who are the people you want to connect with and are you like, you know, investing enough time and energy to be able to connect with them, but at the same time, also think about who you are as a person and are you investing enough time and energy to be that person that you want to be. So I would think that two, reflecting on those two topics will be quite important for your happiness for the 2026
[00:45:59] that's, that was [00:46:00] brilliant. And what about a question, the question that you would ask?
[00:46:04] Helen Wada: I guess like it's, it's about like, you know, asking like who you are and who are, who are the people who, who you care about, and making sure that then ask our first question and then ask, how can I make sure that I invest enough time and energy into being the person I want to be and being together with the people I want to be.
[00:46:20] About it. Who am I and who do I care about, and how do I go about making us all happy? What a wonderful way to close the show. People have enjoyed the conversation about happiness. I certainly have. And they want a book for Christmas or to give as a guest, where can they find you in the book?
[00:46:38] Helen Wada: So the, the book, stopped Chasing Happiness, I guess, like it's available in, in quite many different bookshops or like whatever, online bookshop you would be, be your favorite. Start from there. And I guess like frank marla.com is my website where you can find more information about me and my books and other project that I have.
[00:46:55] Wonderful. Well thank you for joining us on human wise. I hope the snowfalls [00:47:00] you have a fabulous festive season and look forward to seeing what next year brings. Thank you for joining us back.
[00:47:06] Helen Wada: Thank you.
[00:47:09] Stop recording and then we can just finish off.