Ep65: Leading with Relational Intelligence with Kate Heard

Written By Helen Wada

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Leadership has never been more complex. In a world shaped by uncertainty, rapid change, and increasing pressure, the ability to make sound judgements has become one of the defining capabilities of modern leadership. In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by Dr. Kate Heard, researcher, leadership adviser, and expert in human judgement, to explore why even capable, well-intentioned leaders can make decisions that unintentionally create harm.

Drawing on an extraordinary career spanning broadcast journalism, maternal healthcare, humanitarian work, and leadership research, Kate shares why judgement is not simply about intelligence or experience. Together, Helen and Kate explore curiosity, cognitive bias, uncertainty, psychological safety, and how leaders can create environments where better thinking leads to better decisions.

This is an insightful conversation for leaders, boards, and organisations seeking to strengthen judgement, improve decision-making, and lead with greater humanity in increasingly complex environments.

Topics Discussed:

  • Why good leaders can still make poor decisions 

  •  Human judgement in complex and uncertain environments 

  •  The role of curiosity in effective leadership 

  •  How cognitive bias influences decision-making 

  •  Psychological safety and constructive challenge 

  •  Why certainty can become a leadership risk 

  •  Learning from failure without assigning blame 

  •  Building cultures that support better judgement 

  •  Balancing confidence with humility 

  •  Practical ways to strengthen leadership thinking 

Timestamps:

00:00 – 04:10 | Introduction to Kate Heard and her unique leadership journey

04:11 – 08:20 | What it means to be human at work during uncertainty

08:21 – 13:30 | Why capable people unintentionally create harm

13:31 – 18:10 | Judgement, certainty, and the risks leaders face

18:11 – 23:30 | Curiosity, challenge, and creating better conversations

23:31 – 29:15 | Psychological safety and learning from mistakes

29:16 – 35:20 | Cognitive bias and improving decision-making

35:21 – 40:45 | Leadership under pressure and navigating complexity

40:46 – 45:30 | Practical ways to improve judgement every day

45:31 – End | Final reflections and leadership takeaway

Read the episode blog here

About Kate Heard:

Dr Kate Heard has spent her career in rooms where the stakes are real. As a broadcast journalist she learned to read people fast and tell the truth clearly. As a maternal health clinician and humanitarian fieldworker operating across some of the world's most under-resourced environments, she saw firsthand what happens when well-intentioned systems fail the people they were designed to protect. Her doctoral research asked the question that now sits at the centre of everything she does: why do capable, committed people cause preventable harm?

That question led her out of clinical practice and into the boardroom because the answer is the same whether you're running a maternal health intervention in a conflict zone or leading an organisation through a crisis. Sustained pressure doesn't just make leaders tired. It hijacks the very monitoring systems they rely on to know when something is wrong. The result is a particular kind of danger: leaders who are most certain, most decisive, and most resistant to challenge at precisely the moment their judgment is most compromised.

Kate's work in human performance asks something that sits right at the heart of the human-wise conversation: what actually has to be true for a leader to show up with humanity, clarity and confidence when it matters most? The leaders most committed to getting this right are often the ones most at risk. Not because they lack the skills, but because sustained pressure erodes access to them. Knowing how to lead from within means nothing if the conditions that make it possible have already been stripped away.

Kate is based in Auckland, New Zealand, and works internationally with leaders and organisations where getting it wrong has serious consequences.

  • [00:00:00]

    [00:00:29] Welcome and

    [00:00:29] Helen Wada: Welcome

    [00:00:30] Helen Wada: Kate Hurd to HumanWise. I think you are the record for the furthest distance in conversation I've had on this show.

    [00:00:41] Helen Wada: Tell the audience where you are

    [00:00:42] Kate Heard: Well, you can, might be able to tell by my accent, but I am from the deep south. I am from New Zealand currently living in Auckland where we are in winter and you are in a heatwave.

    [00:00:53] Kate Heard: So...

    [00:00:54] Helen Wada: we, we

    [00:00:54] Helen Wada: absolutely are on a heatwave.

    [00:00:56] Helen Wada: I'm glad it's 8:00 o'clock in the morning because I'm not sure I could do this much later[00:01:00]

    [00:01:01] Kate Heard: Yes, I did notice. So, that you really were having... And we're actually quite mild, having a very mild winter too, so I'm not sure what's happening in the, on, in the planet at the moment. But we know that global warming must be alive and well because we're certainly, we're sitting in the 20s and you guys are in the mid-30s.

    [00:01:17] Kate Heard: It's crazy

    [00:01:19] Helen Wada: to it. Yeah, no, absolutely, in mid-30s. And, and I have a fond connection with New Zealand because my brother, as we've talked about, my brother lives in Whangarei, in the Bay of Islands, and so New Zealand is one of my favorite countries in the world. We didn't actually meet in New Zealand. We met through our coaching network.

    [00:01:36] Helen Wada: And really delighted to have you on the show.

    [00:01:40] Kate’s Remarkable Bio

    [00:01:52] Helen Wada: Um, just before we get into the conversation, let me just give the audience just a little smattering of your bio and, and experience, because Kate has got the most wonderful, rich career history. She spent her career in rooms where the stakes are real. As a broadcast journalist, you learn to read [00:02:00] people, people fast and tell the truth clearly. You were also a maternal health clinician. She lived in Beirut. And a humanitarian field worker operating across some of the world's most under-resourced environments, seeing firsthand what happened when well-intentioned systems fail, and actually those systems that they were actually designed to protect. You went on to study a doctorate and asked the question that now sits at the center of everything that you do: Why do capable, committed people cause preventable harm?

    [00:02:36] Helen Wada: And I think there's so much in there. You've, you've taken what you've seen in the field, quite literally in the field,

    [00:02:44] Helen Wada: um, clinical practice, into the boardroom because ultimately the answer is the same whether you're returning, running a maternal health intervention, a conflict zone, or leading an organization through a crisis and turbulent [00:03:00] times.

    [00:03:00] Helen Wada: And I think the one thing that we are all facing wherever we are in the world is that turbulent tu- the turbulent times, the uncertainty of what's going to happen next. I mean, we, we know even in the UK, you look at the political environment, that's changing before our eyes. You look at what's been happening in the Middle East.

    [00:03:19] Helen Wada: We can't look outside of our zones without realizing what's going on. And the result is a particular kind of danger when leaders who are most certain, most decisive, and most resistant to challenge are precisely the moment their judgment is most compromised.

    [00:03:38] Helen Wada: And so you're now working at this forefront of human performance that sits right at the heart of this Human Wise conversation. What needs to be true as a leader to show up with humanity, clarity and confidence when it matters most?

    [00:03:56] Kate Heard: Hmm.

    [00:03:57] Helen Wada: And I'm really curious to [00:04:00] explore that with you this morning, Kate, because there's just so much in there that the wisdom, we talk about being human wise,

    [00:04:07] Helen Wada: the-

    [00:04:07] Helen Wada: wisdom from your experience.

    [00:04:09] Who Is Kate Really

    [00:04:09] Helen Wada: tell us a little bit more about you as a person.

    [00:04:13] Helen Wada: That's a little of a career history, but tell us a little bit more about who's Kate? Who's Kate on the inside?

    [00:04:19] Kate Heard: who's Kate on the inside? Well, look, I am a mother of three. I have two adopted children one locally and one internationally adopted child with special needs. I had seven animals, so you can he- from that... And I have my, my father living with us too. So as... I'm sort of one of these collectors of humans and creatures who need support and help.

    [00:04:42] Kate Heard: I, if, if you know the Enneagram, anybody, I'm an Enneagram two. I am the helper that sometimes to my own detriment but that is-- runs right through the professions that I've had and, and still does. Coaching is, is something that is inherently in, looking to elevate others as well. [00:05:00] So, that is the heart of who I am.

    [00:05:02] Kate Heard: I work... Well, I say I work. It is my hobby as a national gymnastics coach. So I also have been doing that for over 30 years. I currently work with athletes who are let's just say may- wouldn't be coached by others. So I love to work with the challenge of those who have been told no or have been let go from national programs and elevate those children to a place where they feel that they have been successful.

    [00:05:29] Kate Heard: And so, yeah, that's, that's my, my hobby. But yeah, it really comes from the heart of what I learnt growing up and and what's important to me as a human being. When I leave, leave this world and leave my mark, I need to know that I have been of value to this, to this world and to the people of the world, for sure.

    [00:05:48] Helen Wada: What a, what a great story and journey that you are on and, and will continue

    [00:05:54] Helen Wada: to be on.

    [00:05:54] What It Means to Be Human

    [00:05:54] Helen Wada: Um, I often ... I start with a question, what does it mean to be human at work? But I think where you're at and, and what you're seeing, just what does it mean to be human? You talk a lot about humanity and performance, but in your words, what does it really mean to be human?

    [00:06:14] Kate Heard: It's an interesting question. It's a really interesting question actually, because I think that we could answer that in many different ways in many different places around the world. For me, myself, to be human is, is to not look at everybody as the same. I think that's inherently the thing that we need to do the most because quite often we, we pigeonhole people, we pigeonhole cultures.

    [00:06:39] Kate Heard: I mean, you and I look the same, but we're very different culturally. We have very different ways of moving and living in the world and the, the way we make decisions based on where we were, were born. Yet we, we look the same. So if we were standing side by side, people may ask-- you know, think we would answer the same question very similarly, but actually we might ask we might answer it [00:07:00] very differently.

    [00:07:00] Kate Heard: And so I think to be human is to really be tuned in to others, to be empathetic, to be supportive in a way that doesn't, How would I put this? In a way that doesn't lower that person's self-esteem. So there is supporting, and then there is kind of taking over, and we, we tend to see a lot of that happening, particularly in the workplace. I think we, we need to not assume. We do a lot of as- assuming. We do a lot of judging, and I think to be human is to really be able to sit back and wonder why someone is performing the way they are or why are they behaving the way they are.

    [00:07:44] Kate Heard: Asking questions rather than judging and assuming, which we do a lot of.

    [00:07:48] Authenticity and Context

    [00:07:48] Kate Heard: yeah, I think, we, we talk about this word authenticity, and that's of course in your book as well. And I think authenticity is a really interesting word because I don't know about you, but sometimes this [00:08:00] authenticity as a mother and a wife and in different situations that I work in is very different.

    [00:08:08] Kate Heard: Coaching sport, for example, and I had... It was interesting. I was part of a, a coaching mastermind group, and people would say to me, "I can't understand how you work with this level of people that you do the way you show up in this room." And I was like, "Hmm, interesting," because the way I show up is authentic to the work I'm doing with the people that I'm in the room with.

    [00:08:32] Kate Heard: But how I show up in a group of peers is very different. So authenticity can look different in different situations. It's not necessarily performative, yet we know there are people who are performative, so we have to be careful with this authenticity and performative kind of sense that people are having.

    [00:08:52] Kate Heard: I think authenticity we need... is, is a deep discussion around what that actually means, and people thinking, "Oh, I [00:09:00] just show up." I mean, I see leaders who say to me all the time, "I'm being-- I am being authentic." And I said, "Authentic to what, though?" they think that, "Well, I'm normally like this in person, so I'm just gonna show up at work this way 'cause everyone's telling me to be authentic."

    [00:09:16] Kate Heard: Well, it- that's not right for the situation that you're in. So yeah, people are mistaking this idea of authenticity as just to be one thing all the time and open and whatever it is that they are, and people see everything. But it is context specific, I do believe.

    [00:09:35] Helen Wada: And, and that reminds me of so the, the subpersonality work almost that we do in coaching. For those of you that aren't familiar with subpersonalities, it's not like we're hiding underneath, different personalities, but it's a, it's a term for the recognition that

    [00:09:54] Helen Wada: we do all have those different personalities within our world.

    [00:09:58] Helen Wada: And so that might [00:10:00] be as a mother, as a wife, as a father, boss, us here, as a colleague, as a friend. We all have these different roles and personalities, and it's about recognizing when you need to dial it up for the situation that you're in, dial it down. And I think that's a really useful way to think about yourself, in the, in the book I talk about how you show up is really important, and it absolutely is important in the world of work. Be yourself and to be authentic, but authentic for the situation that you're in

    [00:10:37] Kate Heard: And I also think in the, in the context of who you're working with. For example, if I'm working with a politician or an-- I'm working with an athlete, their needs are very different. And it depends. And e- even between athlete to athlete, their needs are very different. There are some athletes that need me to be with them, and there are other athletes that need me to be really empathetic.

    [00:10:59] Kate Heard: And so [00:11:00] both of those are authentic to me.

    [00:11:01] Kate Heard: That's... But they are who I am.

    [00:11:04] Relational Intelligence vs AI

    [00:11:04] Kate Heard: but - this is the beauty of why human connection is so important because AI, yes, we can get all the knowledge from AI. Absolutely. It's a useful tool for knowledge. But that knowledge would spit out the same thing to those two athletes.

    [00:11:21] Kate Heard: They're not understanding what's underneath, and I think there is nothing that replaces that human ability to look at somebody in front of you, to watch, with relational intelligence, look at their body movements, look at what's happening to them. Are they sweating? Are they looking down? Are they jiggling their knee?

    [00:11:40] Kate Heard: All those beautiful things that these-- that when you sit in a room with a human being, what they say that comes out of their mouth and how they perform in that room, in that moment when they're saying it are two different things, and that's something AI cannot replicate

    [00:11:57] Helen Wada: And it's, the word that, that struck me there, [00:12:00] Kate, is relational intelligence. Because it's, for me, the human advantage is it's about not ma- looking at these skills as soft skills anymore. They have done for, for a long, long time.

    [00:12:16] Helen Wada: The sort of the nice to have it, have it on the side. But now, as you say, with AI and the knowledge that is available at the touch of a button, subject to you being able to- check it, because we were buying a new printer a couple of weekends ago, and we tried to use AI to help, and it was absolutely rubbish. But anyway

    [00:12:35] Helen Wada: do this, this, and this. And it comes back and it says well, this one's this. So I showed it to my husband like, "This is the one we want." And he says, "But that hasn't got point three that we want." Go back in, that hasn't got what- whatever it was, automatic duplex printing. Oh, you're right. I'm like, "What, what use is that to me?"

    [00:12:54] Kate Heard: Yeah, exactly. And like we all know, it's particularly with high performers that [00:13:00] we're very good at putting the mask on. So we're able to put the questions that we need the answers to or to AI, but we can bluff it. With a person, they can't bluff in front of you. If you're really good at your work as a coach or consultant, you'll be able to see that this client is-- There is just, you know-- And this is why paralinguistics is so important because, we really need to understand humans not just from the words that come out of their mouth, but their behaviors, the way they walk into a room, there's the way they hunch in a chair, m- all those different things.

    [00:13:40] Inclusion Beyond Hierarchy

    [00:13:40] Kate Heard: And I, and I think for me, what is also important about being human and, and maternal health I did this. In the meetings that are normally for the m- the staff, the medical staff I would bring the cleaners in

    [00:13:55] Kate Heard: to the morning meeting, and people were like, "Why would you?" And they were like, "Why are you bringing us in?"

    [00:13:59] Kate Heard: I'm like, [00:14:00] "Well, here's the thing. We need to turn over this. We've got this number and we know that are coming in who are in early labor. We know this is happening, this is happening. We need these rooms to be turned over. What is-- What can we do to support you so that you can do your best at your job and get these turned over quickly, so we can bring these m- ensure these people can come in efficiently and quickly?"

    [00:14:20] Kate Heard: Not just tell them what they need to do. And when you buy in, when they are part of the decision-making, when those people who are crucial, they are your infection control. They are the ones that will be able to help you be more efficient at your job. They are a key, key piece of the puzzle. But people ignore them because there's a hierarchy.

    [00:14:43] Kate Heard: Even the cleaners were like, "Why do you want us in here? We're not part of you." Well, yes, you are. You are part of the equation that makes this very-- this highly stressful and sustained pressure environment work. And if I include you in [00:15:00] decision-making, you are gonna work well for me. You are going to be there when I need you.

    [00:15:04] Kate Heard: We're all gonna work together in a cohesive way that actually will make a much more successful day than if I actually just put you to the side and told you what to do, and you were kind of like, whatever, and yeah.

    [00:15:16] Helen Wada: It's, the three words that are coming to me are trust, and respect. for having honest conversations with everybody and bringing them in at the right time. And I think that's one of the challenges in modern organizations today. I mean, I'm

    [00:15:37] Helen Wada: coaching across the board with senior leaders and middle management, and hearing the challenges that people are having on the ground, where there is a, the, the lack of trust, that lack of,

    [00:15:52] Kate Heard: Yeah

    [00:15:52] Helen Wada: lack And it really, it sort of brings it home of why I've set up The Human Advantage, why [00:16:00] I'm holding these podcast conversations, because I do believe there's a better way. And, people like y- your wonderful self proving that if people embrace the human skills, the empathy, the sensing, the, the curiosity,

    [00:16:18] Helen Wada: the listening, the inclusion above all else,

    [00:16:24] Helen Wada: then we can create workplaces

    [00:16:27] Helen Wada: that are not just commercially successful, that have humanity at the heart. I truly believe that

    [00:16:36] Kate Heard: And I actually, the thing about leaders is they need to understand that humanity is a key component to success. Whereas they think at the moment it's a nice to have, it makes them look good. "Oh yeah, we'll do this. We'll... What we'll do is we'll put a a Christmas fund," or, "We'll do this," or, "We'll run a raffle," or, "We'll have a morning tea."

    [00:16:56] Kate Heard: Okay? And it's not about the performative X, it's about [00:17:00] the noticing the nuance, right? So you worked at KPMG, yeah? Huge audience that you, huge office and many, many people. Who do you believe, what kind of staff do you believe would have a handle over what's happening in every floor of that, in every department, in every floor?

    [00:17:21] Kate Heard: Who, who are the key people who would, who would know would have their ears open and eyes open in the course of their day in performing their duty about what's happening everywhere?

    [00:17:33] Helen Wada: One huge matrix I think is what comes to mind.

    [00:17:37] Kate Heard: Huge major

    [00:17:38] Helen Wada: yeah, because, because it was different people for different things, and I think that's where a lot of organizations are in terms of you talk about supportive environment being, how do you support people? How do you create the accountability? So having that commercial focus, And in many organizations, there's such matrix in terms [00:18:00] of line management responsibilities that sometimes those lines are blurred

    [00:18:04] Kate Heard: I agree, but also think about the lower level staff, right? When you think about your runners, so reception runners, people who-- the service staff, the ones who are coming to fix the computers, the ones who are

    [00:18:17] Helen Wada: They were always fabulous on the KPMD desk, by the way. They were always like the highlight of my day walking into the security guard because they were just

    [00:18:25] Kate Heard: But also people make conversation. They hear all the what's going on. They are the eyes and ears of everything, right? They're seeing how people cope under sustained pressure because they're coming to them, right? How does this person react under pressure? How does this person when something's going wrong?

    [00:18:40] Kate Heard: Those are your key people, but they're not considered key people. They're considered auxiliary staff. They're not considered key people in understanding how some of these work. So leaders, yes, you can bring in... You can ask, down the line what's happening here. But you're gonna get your real information from some of these [00:19:00] auxiliary staff who aren't considered to be the key p- players because they actually work for or support some of these people here and how they all react to various things, and they're key information for any leader, any manager, about how some of their people are working and under s- under sustained pressure

    [00:19:21] Helen Wada: It, it's the different data points,

    [00:19:24] Helen Wada: isn't it?

    [00:19:24] Helen Wada: And

    [00:19:25] Kate Heard: Yeah.

    [00:19:26] Accountability With Humanity

    [00:19:26] Helen Wada: you talk a lot about human performance, and I want to come back to sort of these conversations where we're talking about supporting people accountability. Because actually one of the conversations I'm having at the moment is around how do we equip our people to have better sort of focused conversations around accountability,

    [00:19:49] Helen Wada: actually Are doing it in the right way?

    [00:19:52] Helen Wada: I mean, in the book I talk about having a commercial focus

    [00:19:57] Helen Wada: with a coaching approach, that how your mindset matters. It's that [00:20:00] sort of interwoven infinity loop of knowing where you're going as a business and doing it in the right way, having that right conversation in accountability. What's your experience for having those supportive conversations that really hold people but still keep them to account?

    [00:20:21] Kate Heard: Yeah, it's an interesting one, that one, because-- you need to be good cop and bad cop at the same time, which is a really interesting place to be. I think honesty is really important. I think honest conversations being clear, being very, it's speaking to people in a way that identifies that they're human, right?

    [00:20:46] Helen Wada: Yeah, it's back, back to being human

    [00:20:48] Kate Heard: it's back to being human. It's looking at, "Okay, I've noticed that your productivity is down this week. And we've got a deadline, and I'm, I'm-- I'd love you to help me understand what's causing [00:21:00] that." There's a different way to saying, "Look, mate, you're just not working hard enough. What on earth's going on here when you know we've got this deadline, and we've got to get it done?"

    [00:21:10] Kate Heard: When you approach someone and say, "Hey, look I'm sorry I'm having to bring you in. We've got this deadline, and here's the thing I'm noticing. And it's not usual for you, and I'm really curious what's happening here, and how can we f- what-- how can we support you to fix that so we can get this deadline met?"

    [00:21:27] Kate Heard: That is a human approach that actually still d- covers both. We need this done, so what can we do to get you there? What support do you need? What's happening? Is there something underlying happening that we need to look at? And s- If not, how do we suppor- or either way, how do we support you through this?

    [00:21:46] Kate Heard: And I think that's one of the complexities around... It often gets missed. Let me just say, it often gets missed that I see in very high and upper leadership, is this ability to be able [00:22:00] to speak in a way that is gonna get the best out of your employee in that moment. And people don't have the language or it's, it's helping people with the language with that really.

    [00:22:14] Kate Heard: And how they sit with them when they do that, not over a desk, sitting in a way that's, take them for coffee and say, "Hey," to the coffee room. Something that's, doing it privately, not in front of other people, all those sorts of things that people miss in the heat of the moment to get the best out of your employees.

    [00:22:34] Kate Heard: Yeah.

    [00:22:35] Coaching Conversations at Work

    [00:22:35] Helen Wada: It's it's taking a coaching approach, isn't it? I mean, coaching skills are really at the heart helping people think about some of these complex conversations, these honest conversations. Because you and I, when we're coaching, it's the sort of thing you would do naturally. You think about the environment, you think about where does the conversation best happen. You read how they are coming into the room. You [00:23:00] get curious to understand what's going on for you. Y- you state facts. You can, you can share perspectives on what you're noticing. And I think, the, the higher level coach is absolutely, we, we have a skill in ed- of being able to share the data points to the extent that they're helpful for our clients. What are you noticing? Is that real or not? Bringing those in, keeping it fact-based, but, but using EQ without being emotional, without it becoming a drama.

    [00:23:33] Kate Heard: Hmm.

    [00:23:33] Helen Wada: that's the other... 'cause otherwise you end up in the drama triangle, and you end up with people that are, worried about where they are and, and what they're doing

    [00:23:42] Old School Workplace Culture

    [00:23:42] Kate Heard: And I think there is also a responsibility when you bring in someone new. There's this whole thing about let's see if they sink or swim. Let's-- You've gotta do your time. This is how it is, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, we still see this. I'm still seeing, young people. My, my daughter's 22.

    [00:23:59] Kate Heard: She's, [00:24:00] like, out and finished her degree and out in the workforce now.

    [00:24:03] Helen Wada: Wow

    [00:24:04] Kate Heard: And I'm, looking at that thinking, goodness me, some of the people that she's come across, and women to women, which blows my mind. She's in the law space, so you know, there's a lot of old school behaviors that happen in the, in there.

    [00:24:19] Kate Heard: And I was-- Her first position, I was truly shocked. Truly shocked. And I, I knew who her... I had been out for dinner with this woman who employed her. And the-- then realizing how many staff that she had lost throughout the year. A dozen staff in 12, in 12 months. One a month she had lost from her team alone.

    [00:24:41] Power Perpetuates Harm

    [00:24:41] Kate Heard: Uh, my daughter has now moved on somewhere else. But it was shocking to me just how she couldn't read that this was a problem. What she was doing was perpetuating the system that she had gone through. She had obviously [00:25:00] had to Be treated in a certain, was treated in a certain way climbing the ladder to become, the partner that she is in this big law firm.

    [00:25:07] Kate Heard: , it's interesting, you see this happening over and over and over again in different environments. So we see that happening look in, in, in many of the developing countries I was in, where a young woman was denied medical care by her mother-in-law because the fittest survive.

    [00:25:24] Kate Heard: I had young women who were made to give birth in the living room of their in-laws' home, all the while professing the sins of the marriage. And if she if she survived and the baby survived, she didn't sin. If the baby survived, she was a sinner, and she was cast out. And if she died in childbirth, then she was obviously evil, and she deserved to go.

    [00:25:49] Helen Wada: Yeah

    [00:25:50] Kate Heard: No idea no realization that this is a fifteen, sixteen-year-old girl who was pregnant and her body isn't necessarily ready to, to push [00:26:00] out a baby. And there can be complications with, with these sorts of things. But it, it was this rite of passage. They had survived in the system, and now they had power.

    [00:26:10] Kate Heard: So therefore, once we have power, we've got to perpetuate that, and it's, it's a systematic problem. It's yeah, where humanity is not at the forefront

    [00:26:23] Helen Wada: and that's why we're here, right? That's why you do the work that you do, and that's

    [00:26:26] Helen Wada: why I do the work that I do. And, even in 2026 and probably in 2036, Kate, we will still be doing our work because actually whilst the ecosystems are like this and there are, there are some exa- great examples out there, but while there are many examples that aren't so up there in terms of humanity, that our, our work is, is here to, to help others create the spaces

    [00:26:53] Helen Wada: that

    [00:26:53] Helen Wada: are human, that are real, that are commercial.

    [00:26:56] Why Leaders Avoid Hard Talks

    [00:26:56] Helen Wada: I've got two questions on, on what we were just talking about. Going [00:27:00] back to those difficult conversations, those, where, where you're trying to look at performance

    [00:27:07] Kate Heard: Mm.

    [00:27:07] Helen Wada: having those coaching type conversations.

    [00:27:10] Helen Wada: What do you think is stopping people from having them in a, in a human-centered way?

    [00:27:18] Helen Wada: Is it skill? Is it time? Is it a combination of both? Is... What else-

    [00:27:24] Kate Heard: Look, I really do believe that most people's intentions are good.

    [00:27:27] Helen Wada: Yeah, me too

    [00:27:29] Kate Heard: do believe, what is modeled to us is how oft- unless we are emotionally intelligent, relationally intelligent, and we've had role models of that or experiences where we've needed that and someone has served us in that way, it's very hard to be able to do something you don't know how to do.

    [00:27:48] Kate Heard: If that's never been modeled to you, and I can New Zealand is an offshoot of Britain, we are in the Commonwealth, and so for many, many years we had that system too of, do the time, chin up, don't [00:28:00] express this, don't do that, right? I mean, my f- my father was one of those. Get on

    [00:28:05] Kate Heard: get up, get up and get on with it. And so we, we ... It's always been suck it up. And and that's not ... wasn't done as a bad thing, it was a survival mechanism. And I think our survival mechanisms have changed as we go on, but people need more or are expecting more or there's a lot more support, particularly with the younger generation coming through.

    [00:28:24] Kate Heard: With the, the ... I think we've ruined a generation. I say ruined a generation. We've ruined it for a generation, not ruined the generation with this lack of ... with the social media from so young. And so we're looking at these kids in their 20s, I call them kids because they feel like they still need so much support because they've lost that ability to be relational.

    [00:28:47] Kate Heard: And they need a lot of tender love and care, and it's our responsibility to do that for them. And people just say, "Oh, they're hopeless. They don't do this. They've got no work ethic." Well, hmm, where were the [00:29:00] systems that were supporting them in that way? I feel like they were let down a little as well because they're amazing thinkers.

    [00:29:06] Kate Heard: We've gotta th- we've just gotta work out how to, to be human with these people to get the best out of them. And it is different to how we were. And it, we can't have a system that's been around for 50 years now working, for the next, for this next generation.

    [00:29:21] Adaptability and Critical Thinking

    [00:29:21] Kate Heard: We have to adapt, and I think that is the key, adaptability.

    [00:29:25] Kate Heard: The best leaders are those that adapt to the conditions that they are in or the situation that they are in, and I think adaptability is something that sometimes is missing, that ability to adapt or to read or to understand or to critically think because I think we're losing our critical thinking skills because of AI.

    [00:29:43] Kate Heard: We don't need to critically think anymore. AI critically thinks for us, and so we're actually sort of getting dumber. And I mean that in a way of we don't need to do all the work, the critical thinking work that we did before and we just expect others to do it for us. And I think, [00:30:00] um, again, we can get a coach to do it for

    [00:30:03] Kate Heard: A leader can get a coach and go sor- sort this employee out.

    [00:30:06] Helen Wada: Yeah

    [00:30:07] Kate Heard: But there is some responsibility. That employee needs to be able to buy in. As we've all coached people who didn't wanna be there and not understanding why their boss has done that, and then feeling like they're being told off when they're in school.

    [00:30:20] Kate Heard: So we have to look at things differently and how we approach things differently

    [00:30:25] Helen Wada: And, and

    [00:30:25] Helen Wada: I think that critical thinking is that stretch into the

    [00:30:29] Helen Wada: EQ, into these human skills. Like, that's where I talk about the mindset muscle,

    [00:30:37] Helen Wada: Where we're building that muscle to adapt the more we do. And it's interesting, in, in the human mnemonic that runs through the center of the book,

    [00:30:46] Helen Wada: the A is about how you then how you adapt.

    [00:30:49] Helen Wada: In, in, in every

    [00:30:53] Helen Wada: conversation, you need to be reading the situation, reading the room. Where are the people coming from? What are

    [00:30:59] Helen Wada: the points of [00:31:00] view that I might not be hearing? What am I missing?

    [00:31:03] Helen Wada: And so thinking skills needed. They're just a different type of skill, and I think what you've touched on there with the younger generation, I, I echo that heart-heartedly.

    [00:31:15] Helen Wada: I mean, when... Again, when I set up the Human Advantage, it was about blending humanity with commerciality. That the

    [00:31:22] Kate Heard: Ooh

    [00:31:23] Helen Wada: key concept. How can we intertwine the two together? And I, I believe, as we talked about before, DNA of being human

    [00:31:31] Helen Wada: Since then, we've had the pandemic. That was kind of just happening as I was thinking about setting up the business. We've had the pandemic. People are working remotely. People are working online. You've got the rise of social media. And I've now got organizations saying to me, "How do we bring these skills into not just our senior leaders, but actually lower rungs of an organization?"

    [00:31:54] Helen Wada: I mean, God, and just you'll laugh. I mean, so Zack and Tom are 16 and 14. Love them dearly, and [00:32:00] Zack is EQ, really good. Tom, as bright as a button, but honestly, Kate, I mean, the, the text messages I get. One last week was, "Mom, what do I do? My bag's broken." Right? It's pouring with rain. I've just come out of a meeting.

    [00:32:14] Helen Wada: I'm going into a tube station. Okay, I know he's got his cricket bag. My fault 'cause he's had cricket, and then he's going to another cricket. What do I do? So I'm there trying to call him. "What, what do you do, darling?" And then he doesn't answer 'cause he doesn't know actually how to pick up. on a text.

    [00:32:28] Helen Wada: So I say, "Well, how do you unlock broken bag, darling? You could carry it in front of you or maybe go to Tesco's or Sainsbury's and get a big bag and pop it in to carry it home with your cricket." " What, what happened, Kate? The, the thing at the top didn't work anymore." I said, "What, you mean the zip?"

    [00:32:45] Kate Heard: Bless them boys. They are interesting.

    [00:32:48] Helen Wada: I love it, baby.

    [00:32:49] ligence in Action

    [00:32:49] Kate Heard: Look, I think part of it is being is being smart in a way that is w- it comes back to, again, I guess the relational intelligence. It's come-- For me, obviously they've got EQ. The relational [00:33:00] stuff is actually really understanding how these leaders work at the top. So who are they as people? What are they...

    [00:33:07] Kate Heard: How do they work? How do I make myself indispensable in a way that really supports this person but actually supports my own agenda? So you're coming from it from a way that I need them to hear me, but I need them, I need to show them w- where my value is. But I need to do it in a way that works for them, right?

    [00:33:28] Kate Heard: So instead of going, "These people think this way, it's not how I think," how can you bring in the conversation? How can you get them to listen to you in a way that is that builds a trust so that then... and builds this relationship that you have with these people? And it doesn't, just by going in and going or, or just by saying, "That's it.

    [00:33:50] Kate Heard: I'm done." 'Cause people do that. "That's it. I'm done. These values are terrible." But it will never change a system. So having to, changing a system requires a plan, [00:34:00] right? And it, it requires a plan. And so you can be someone who goes, "You know what? I give up. It's never gonna happen. I'm just gonna do nothing."

    [00:34:10] Kate Heard: Or you can be, "I'm done. I'm out of here." Or you can be, "My challenge is I see this as a challenge. What am I gonna do now?" And that was me. When I became the first female cricket broadcaster in the world, I was told by the British, one of the British press when they were out in New Zealand when I was a teenager, when I said, "I wanna be a cricket reporter," and they said, "Women don't do that."

    [00:34:33] Kate Heard: And not only did I, was I a cricket reporter in New Zealand, but also in Australia and the UK, and, I w- in print, television, and radio. So for me, it was... And all the time, all, all, all by the time I was 26, my thought was, "How can I win these people over? What can I do? What's a plan?" And this comes down to critical thinking and relational intelligence.

    [00:34:55] Kate Heard: I need to build a relationship with these people in a way that they will hear and [00:35:00] see the value and advantage that there is in listening to me and hearing my ideas and my way of doing things. But I have to also value theirs. I can't throw theirs out with the bathwater, right? I have to be able to bring mine and theirs in a way and show them how they can coexist, but I need a plan to be able to do that.

    [00:35:21] Kate Heard: And

    [00:35:22] Helen Wada: I've just got this big smile on my face 'cause it's that, it's putting others at the heart of your conversation.

    [00:35:29] Helen Wada: And yeah,

    [00:35:31] Kate Heard: 'Cause humanity works both, humanity works both ways,

    [00:35:34] Helen Wada: oh my goodness, absolutely. And it's the U in the HUMOR. In my mnemonic, right? Let's go back.

    [00:35:39] Helen Wada: H is how you show up. The U is understanding others,

    [00:35:44] Helen Wada: and where are they coming from.

    [00:35:45] Helen Wada: And it goes back to all of those, whether it's your boss, whether it's a leader, whether it's a team member that you need to have a conversation with. Going back to the conversation we just had,

    [00:35:54] Helen Wada: understanding where they're coming from and what's going on in their world

    [00:35:59] Kate Heard: Yeah [00:36:00]

    [00:36:00] Helen Wada: help you to shape the conversation and the thinking, and it's the relational intelligence piece.

    [00:36:06] Helen Wada: It's about putting human at the heart of these

    [00:36:10] Helen Wada: conversations, no matter how challenging, no matter how stressful, and being truthful and transparent

    [00:36:20] Kate Heard: Absolutely.

    [00:36:21] Good Intentions Gone Wrong

    [00:36:22] Kate Heard: And I think, too, I work a lot with leaders around the cost of good intentions, which sounds really, like, counterintuitive. They've got good intentions. And this is where, I mean, people are really, often at the heart have good intentions, but they just don't understand what happens in the flow t- three steps down from what that intention that they had.

    [00:36:39] Kate Heard: And for example... I'll just use an example from mine, but it works in a corporate sense as well, is I was working in in Africa, in Senegal in Africa, and a, and a wonderful US organization had given... had decided to give incubators to this village so that these babies could be taken care of. Sent eight incubators.

    [00:36:59] Kate Heard: [00:37:00] Wonderful, amazing thing to do. The problem is, is that the power... no one had researched that the power is very inefficient, is off a lot of the time, so you can't have an incubator when the power's off. You, most people weren't ever trained on how to use them. There was... They didn't send anyone over to train how to use them.

    [00:37:17] Kate Heard: The power is far too costly to run. They couldn't run them, and so these things just sat there. But here was a population that had to feel grateful for something that, that actually was a detriment to them, that they actually had to feel grateful to this pe- these people who had bought something that they could never use and was clogging up an area.

    [00:37:41] Kate Heard: And so for them, it was really difficult. So it was a good intention, but nobody had asked them what they actually wanted. That wasn't what they needed. Nobody stopped to go, "Hey, what is it you actually need? How can we support you?" It was, "We're gonna save the babies of Africa, and we're gonna send you this, and [00:38:00] you will use it, and you will be grateful, and you will thank this."

    [00:38:02] Kate Heard: And so w- I often talk with people, and it, and it happens in corporate as well. "We're gonna send you on this so you can learn this." Well, maybe I don't wanna learn that. Maybe that's not where I'm going. Maybe that's... And you think you're supporting me by putting me on this course or buddying me up with this person.

    [00:38:19] Kate Heard: But actually, have you ever asked me what it is that I need and that I want and what would be really useful for me to be able to do my job better? No one ever asked me. They just assume I need this.

    [00:38:31] Helen Wada: And, we haven't talked about sales at all in this. A lot of what I do is integrating sales and leadership, because I believe the skills that you need to sell and win work are the same skills that you need to lead and integrate. Integrated approach. What you're talking about more is that, "Well, I've got something that you want," sell, rather than the curiosity approach says, "What is it that you might need?

    [00:38:55] Helen Wada: How can we help you?" And sales, it's full of the expectation of you've got [00:39:00] people going, "I've got this. You want this." When we, we get badgered all the time on social media, on, whatever.

    [00:39:06] Helen Wada: The heart rate fails and winning work, EQ skill.

    [00:39:11] Kate Heard: Hmm.

    [00:39:12] Helen Wada: Really get under the skin of putting somebody else at the heart of a conversation and thinking, "What's important to you, and can I help?"

    [00:39:20] Pause and Reflect Under Pressure

    [00:39:20] Kate Heard: And I, I think also, too, what's really important is reflection. So one of the things that I really, you know, in my work that I'm looking at is, is this whole idea of the threshold. That moment where we feel under, very sustained pressure, where we feel that we're being, w- that we're at our most confident, we're at our least accurate.

    [00:39:39] Kate Heard: And I think that comes in those moments where we don't reflect. We've got to pause and reflect and think about, reflection as a leader when those... when we're under pressure, understanding our physiology, understanding what happens to us. Because many high performers... I'm one of th- these types of people.

    [00:39:56] Kate Heard: I've made this mistake where I have been thinking, "Oh, [00:40:00] I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine." My... I mean, th- there's very little that will throw me off my axis mentally. Physically, whoa, I pay the price for it. And sometimes I'm starting to understand this thing about accuracy. I'm confident, and I make a decision really quickly because I'm like, "Yep, I've done...

    [00:40:18] Kate Heard: Yep, yep, that's the right decision." And then I look back and think, "Oh, God, I should've been... I, I could have done that better." But I rushed into my, my certainty without thinking it, reflecting on my, am I... is this the right thing? 'Cause I'm so like, "Yeah, I'm the... I, I know how to fix that. I know how to answer that.

    [00:40:33] Kate Heard: I know how to do this," for sake of time or sake of pressure, under, under the

    [00:40:38] Helen Wada: But here

    [00:40:39] Kate Heard: When if I'd just taken a moment of reflection and thought, "Hmm, is this the right thing?" And we don't do that enough, and we need to really understand how our minds and bodies and everything work in these sustained environments, pressure environments.

    [00:40:53] Helen Wada: that pressing the pause, isn't it?

    [00:40:55] Helen Wada: It is knowing macro, micro [00:41:00] conversation. When do we press the pause? When do we say, "What actually is going on here? Is this the right decision? Is this the right conversation?" It's so, so important. Kate, I have absolutely loved our conversation today. I did get you off about the cricket.

    [00:41:17] Helen Wada: Probably not best to talk about the New Zealand, England cricket where we are right now. But there's one more match to go. Let's see what, let's see what happens

    [00:41:24] Kate Heard: Well, we're rubbing our hands with glee at the moment, so as- that we've got to where we've got, yes.

    [00:41:29] Helen Wada: No, absolutely.

    [00:41:30] Top Tip and Closing Question

    [00:41:30] Helen Wada: Um, but you're not gonna get off lightly because I always ask the guests to give the listeners one top tip. We've covered so many things today, but one top tip, and then a good coach loves a great question. One question to reflect on.

    [00:41:45] Kate Heard: I think it is really about... The top tip would be to really be... Be reflective. I think most people assume that confidence means clarity. We're really... When we're under sustained pressure, we often become, well, we think we're more certain. We become [00:42:00] less accurate. So it's really that, a moment of thinking, that pause, that top tip of like, "

    [00:42:05] Kate Heard: Is this the right thing? Because I'm usually so confident, but am I being accurate here about what I'm doing?" And it often comes in these conversations. It often comes, "Is this the right thing to be doing with this staff member? I've done this with X, Y, Z, but maybe this person's slightly different."

    [00:42:21] Kate Heard: It's the moment of pause as you talk about the reflection.

    [00:42:24] Kate Heard: The minute we stop and we just take a breath before we actually speak it into the world what we wanna do or we put it out in, into a conversation and having that moment of reflection, yeah. I think that's really important. and a reflection question.

    [00:42:39] Kate Heard: I would like... Let me think about this one. I think it would be at point does the way you work begin costing you the very qualities that make you the most effective?

    [00:42:52] Kate Heard: Shall I say it again? At what point does the way you work begin costing you the very qualities that make you the most [00:43:00] effective

    [00:43:00] Kate Heard: That would be my question

    [00:43:02] Helen Wada: I love it. And actually, I'm going to write that down and reflect on that because I... That's a really, really powerful question so wonderful to see you again,

    [00:43:12] Helen Wada: Kate

    [00:43:13] Kate Heard: Wonderful to see you too. Thank you so much for inviting me.

    [00:43:16] Kate Heard: It's been

    [00:43:16] Helen Wada: real pleasure to have you on the show, and I look forward to seeing you

    [00:43:19] Helen Wada: again

    [00:43:20] Helen Wada: soon.

    [00:43:20]

    [00:44:04] ​

Helen Wada
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Ep64: Leading Under Pressure Without Losing Your Humanity with Kate Adams