Ep63: Leading Through Uncertainty Without Losing Yourself with Sally Henderson
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What happens when uncertainty becomes the norm rather than the exception? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by high-stakes leadership mentor, speaker, and author Sally Henderson to explore what it takes to lead, perform, and thrive when pressure never seems to let up.
Drawing on 25 years of experience working with senior leaders and executive teams, Sally shares why many traditional leadership approaches have not kept pace with the realities of today's world. Together, Helen and Sally explore the importance of boundaries, identity, recovery, and self-awareness, and why sustainable performance starts with understanding not just how you lead, but how you live.
This is a thought-provoking conversation for leaders, founders, commercial professionals, and anyone navigating uncertainty while trying to stay true to themselves.
Topics Discussed
Why uncertainty has become a permanent feature of leadership
The relationship between personal identity and professional identity
Why boundaries are essential for sustainable performance
The difference between purpose and action
How leaders can reframe high-stakes situations
The role of emotional awareness and embodied leadership
Using breath, reflection, and recovery to improve performance
Why rhythm matters more than time management
Balancing commercial success with personal wellbeing
How trust, courage, and energy shape high-performance leadership
Timestamps:
00:00 – 04:30 | Introduction and why leadership has changed since 2020
04:31 – 07:15 | What it means to be human at work today
07:16 – 13:50 | Boundaries, identity, and showing up as your best self
13:51 – 18:30 | Purpose, action, and the power of three
18:31 – 24:10 | Reframing high stakes and understanding your relationship with pressure
24:11 – 30:10 | Gut instinct, embodied leadership, and self-awareness
30:11 – 34:20 | Practical tools for regulating yourself under pressure
34:21 – 38:20 | Why leaders struggle to pause and reflect
38:21 – 43:15 | Creating better rhythms for work and life
43:16 – 49:00 | Recovery, resilience, and sustainable performance
49:01 – 52:20 | Reflection questions and Sally's REAL Score Test
52:21 – 53:30 | Where to find Sally and closing thoughts
Read the episode blog here
About Sally Henderson:
Follow @sallykhenderson/ on LinkedIn
Visit WWW.SALLYHENDERSON.CO.UK to learn more
Sally Henderson is the high-stakes leadership mentor senior leaders call when the pressure is relentless and the next move really matters.
With more than 25 years of experience working with C-suite executives and executive teams, she combines sharp commercial thinking, deep emotional intelligence, and practical leadership insight gained through decades of experience. Earlier in her career, Sally built a successful executive search firm specialising in Brand, Design, and Innovation leadership, placing senior leaders into global organisations. More than sixteen years ago, she stepped away from executive search to focus on what she had always known mattered most: helping leaders master how they lead and how they live.
Sally is the creator of The REAL Method, developed from her belief that while leaders often focus on why they lead, it is how they lead that determines whether they achieve sustainable success. As leadership has shifted from periods of acute pressure to a constant state of uncertainty and change, her work helps leaders build the foundations needed to thrive in today's high-stakes environment.
Her clients include Nestlé, Accenture Song, Coca-Cola, M&C Saatchi, NatWest, Omnicom, Reach PLC, and WPP. She is the author of The HOW of High Performance and host of the accompanying podcast of the same name. Sally is also a member of WACL, The Marketing Society, and a volunteer with The Marketing Academy Fellowship Programme.
Known by her clients as "the wingwoman every C-suite needs", Sally brings challenge, clarity, and grounded confidence into every high-stakes conversation. Described as "a warm hug and a cold shower all at once", she helps leaders strengthen performance not by doing more, but by mastering how they lead and how they live.
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[00:00:29] Helen Wada: Welcome to another episode of Humanwise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Sally Henderson join me this afternoon. Sally is a high stakes leadership mentor, founder, and author of The How of High Performance, recently published, Sally, and really delighted to meet you, and we've met through our, our love of books and publishing world.
[00:00:52] Helen Wada: But with 25 years of experience with working with C-suite executives and executive teams, you really bring a [00:01:00] sharp commercial thinking and emotional intelligence to leadership and the work that you do, and I think both you and I connected over that humanity piece, the emotional intelligence piece.
[00:01:11] Helen Wada: But most importantly, the commercial aspects of what we do because actually we know that today the stakes are high
[00:01:20] Helen Wada: In the world of work. We know that people are suffering with stress, with the workplace as it is today, the increasing demands. And in your words, high stakes leadership has shifted since 2020 from acute to chronic.
[00:01:37] Helen Wada: It's a permanent operating condition, and most leaders are running on the foundations that were never really built for the disruption and uncertainty that we're living in today. So it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. I'll leave you to tell the listeners a little bit more about you and what you do, but can't wait to get into the conversation
[00:01:56] Sally Henderson: Oh, likewise, Helen. I've been so excited to come and [00:02:00] have this conversation, and thank you so much for inviting me on. Yeah, I mean, I think you've introed me perfectly. I am a high-stakes leadership mentor, and what that means is that I come in and work with C-suite leaders and their executive teams when things are changing.
[00:02:15] Sally Henderson: Hence why I think now it's just the state of, of every day, isn't it? Historically, high stakes would be a given moment that you would be able to get into peak performance. You'd be very focused, very singular about that high-stakes event, and you'd either deliver it and it would be brilliant, you'd, you'd celebrate, or if it didn't go quite to plan, you could learn, go back to business as usual, gather yourself and prepare for the next high-stakes event.
[00:02:38] Sally Henderson: But since COVID hit, which I think sometimes people go, "God, yawn, COVID," but it did happen, and it has had a long-term legacy that we're still all working through. And since that time, I think what leaders especially are forced to endure is that it hasn't let up for a minute. Like it-- On every level, micro, macro, global, [00:03:00] on cross, social, technological, economical, political, environmental.
[00:03:05] Sally Henderson: It's just been one big high-stakes uncertainty after the other. And so as a leader, and you're, you're there... A great phrase that lots of people use that I've come across recently, which is you're there to be the weather. You're there to set the stage and to, to hold that confidence and clarity, but your reality is that, there isn't confidence and clarity out there for people.
[00:03:26] Sally Henderson: And so even more so, getting the right support, getting the right help, getting the safe space to be real, I think that is something that people don't actually have enough of, and that's what I'm very much here to change
[00:03:40] Helen Wada: I love it, and I think it's, it's so very closely intertwined with, with what I talk about in terms of human-centered leadership.
[00:03:48] Sally Henderson: Absolutely
[00:03:49] Helen Wada: In terms of, when I set up the Human Advantage, it was very much in this point to say "How can we be commercially focused, but human at the heart?" Because [00:04:00] let's face it, the world is not going to change.
[00:04:02] Helen Wada: Commerciality will drive business growth. It will drive us all to be better, to grow, to expand our horizons. But we need to do it in a way that focuses on people first, and that's really putting people first.
[00:04:17] Being Human At Work
[00:04:33] Helen Wada: That's not paying lip service to what it means to put people first, but it's about sh- reshaping the DNA to say, "Well, what do we need to do? How do we create a safe space for you to think and learn and grow?" And I'm interested with all the work that you do, if we kick it off with a question that I always ask guests is, what does it mean to be human at work from where you're coming from?
[00:04:41] Sally Henderson: That is such a fascinating question in today's world of work and leadership. I think for me, being human at work means being real.
[00:04:51] Helen Wada: Oh
[00:04:52] Sally Henderson: it-- but there's a line as well because I think a lot of leadership beliefs that became very common and helpful a few [00:05:00] years ago, such as leaders eat last and be vulnerable and bring your whole self to work, they are very human things.
[00:05:08] Sally Henderson: And I think when they were introduced, they were needed by, by the conditions of work back then, and being human at work back then was not actually happening enough. However, since COVID did blow up the world literally and now we have a, war consistently literally blowing up the world awfully th-those beliefs I don't think have kept pace or got a-ahead of this current change curve because they were so valuable then.
[00:05:36] Sally Henderson: But I think being human at work now actually does call for greater boundaries, ironically. You might think that's counterintuitive, but I think it's so complicated, the world outside of work and the world inside of work, that being human, I think, and being your best self is knowing when not to bring everything into either the work or the home because it's just so [00:06:00] much information and pressure and high stakes.
[00:06:02] Sally Henderson: I think being human is being authentic. That's never going to change. But I think it's also about having greater clarity of your identity and how it is actually to be celebrated that there is a difference inside and outside of work. Like the rules of the game, I-- forgive me, but the A-level student who did sociology, I'm very proud of her B.
[00:06:24] Sally Henderson: But what I loved about that bit, doing sociology back then, was you learnt about norms and deviance and tribes, and how you need norms and deviance to reinforce the rules and, what is acceptable in certain given tribes and conditions. Now, if you and I came on this podcast and we started chatting like university mates reminiscing, that wouldn't be very appropriate for your listeners or, or probably very interesting because that's not our rules.
[00:06:48] Sally Henderson: That's not the identities we're both bringing into this. We're still Helen and Sally but actually the rules of work are different to the rules at home, and I personally believe that's brilliant. That's [00:07:00] to be celebrated, not to be like, well, you'll be the same to everybody. Well, doesn't that-- that to me in a human context actually makes everything a little grayer rather than more colorful.
[00:07:10] Sally Henderson: 'Cause I think the permission to switch off and just be that identity at any one time is actually really healthy
[00:07:18] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:07:19] Boundaries And Identity
[00:07:19] Sally Henderson: So the human element to leadership and being yourself at work, I think, and my experience shows me from what I bring into my work and the results that I get with the clients, is actually going, "Do you know what?
[00:07:31] Sally Henderson: Boundaries are beautiful, and difference is to be celebrated." And you are somebody who can get greater control about that hu- how it feels for you to be human that works for you
[00:07:44] Helen Wada: Yeah. And I think that how it works for you is so important because, you are different to me, that's different to James, that's different to John and Jane and who- whoever we may work with. We are all different. And, and you're right, that is to be [00:08:00] celebrated. What I see, and I'm interested in your perspective, is that we don't often take the time to think about who we really are at work.
[00:08:10] Helen Wada: I, I get that badly. But, I'm a mom of two teenage boys. I'm living, living through GCSEs at the moment, Sally.
[00:08:19] Sally Henderson: Oh, I've got a year's grace and then it's GCSEs next year, then A-levels the year after that
[00:08:25] Helen Wada: So for anybody listening that's going through the same thing, I, we're halfway through, I feel your pain, but we're, we're getting there. Why do I say that? Because I agree with your point on boundaries, and I think I am a better mother, I'm a better leader because I've learnt to put the boundaries in place.
[00:08:45] Helen Wada: It's taken a long period of time to get there, and a number of years where the children were growing up as well. But equally, when we come to work, who we are and how we show up, which actually is the [00:09:00] first chapter of the book that, that I've written, is we don't often take time to think about who we are and what's important to us.
[00:09:08] Helen Wada: And I think that, for me, is so important, and when you, you go back to how, when the stakes are high, what are you seeing? What do people... What can people do to really reinforce who they are so they show up as their best, but within those boundaries that you spoke about?
[00:09:27] Sally Henderson: Yeah.
[00:09:28] PIPI Identity Tool
[00:09:33] Sally Henderson: It's a, it's a tool I created as part of my methodology called The REAL Method, which is in the book. And I call it PIPI, and I often use it. If I'm running a workshop on a away day, I use this as a way of introducing myself, but also simultaneously giving a tool, a practical tool to anybody who's listening w- to me, 'cause I'm a very...
[00:09:46] Sally Henderson: I'm a, a real fan of it must be practical in the real world, hence my method is called The REAL, The REAL Method. It's the Northerner in me, Helen. It's what's it actually gonna do on, out there in the real world, not just in a nice conversation? But PIPI [00:10:00] is something where you share visually your personal identity and your professional identity. So I actually have two names. So married name is Sally Fraser, but work name is Sally Henderson, and because I was that headhunter recruiter previously, that was my identity. And I thought, well, if I suddenly rebrand as Sally Fraser no one's gonna know who I am. So I actually like the fact I have t- literally two names, and when I introduce myself as Sally Fraser, there's a picture of the boys, my lovely rescue Roma- Romanian rescue roller that we got in lockdown my mum, the fact I'm from Yorkshire, and I love a dry stone wall.
[00:10:39] Sally Henderson: It makes me feel wall. I know it's weird, but it, it does. It just makes me feel of home, and other things that I share about my personal identity. And then when I share my professional identity, I talk about being a motivational speaker and author now, that I work with teams, that I'm all about change and that inspiration, but also be the reason someone smiles today.
[00:10:59] Sally Henderson: [00:11:00] And my methodology in the book, and things that are s- very much Sally Henderson, entrepreneur, et cetera. And when I do that as an intro when I'm talking especially to a group, and I say to them, "It takes, what, three minutes? Three minutes to do that." 'Cause the visuals really help. I say, "How well do you know me now?"
[00:11:18] Sally Henderson: And they go, "A lot better." And so it, it, for me, that showing up and being real and knowing about the boundaries, it comes from knowing who am I outside of work, and being able to visually create that so it's something becomes tangible. And who am I as I choose to show up in work? And when I work with clients as teams and one-on-one, I get them all to create a representation visually of their personal identity and professional.
[00:11:45] Sally Henderson: And what's so interesting, Helen, is it's never the same experience twice for any client. Some clients find their professional identity really easy. They're like, "Yes, it's who I am, my values, how I show up as a leader," da, da, da, da, da. And they're like, "God, but who am I outside of work? [00:12:00] I've lost touch." Or others are like, "Yeah, really clear on who I am privately, at home, partner," whatever their situation might be domestically.
[00:12:08] Sally Henderson: Independent, traveler, whatever it might be. But actually I've lost who I am at work. 'Cause maybe they've been going at such a rapid kind of groundhog, fight or flight, so much overwhelm, high stakes, high stakes, that they haven't had time to think, and, and get up to date. And they think, "Well, God, I haven't, haven't," as to your point, "haven't thought about this question either, A, forever, or B, ever."
[00:12:31] Helen Wada: Absolutely. And it, it does amaze me, and I love that, and, and it's very funny. There's so much similarity. We talk about the profe- personal and professional piece, and it's, it's so true because even with boundaries, you can show up and show some of who you are as a person, but keeping those boundaries for outside of work.
[00:12:53] Helen Wada: But actually, in the sales coaching world, we'll, we'll come on to how do you sell yourself in a moment, because I can [00:13:00] imagine with executive search, you would've... you've come across that the whole time. And I'm working with a lot of people at the moment saying, even graduates coming into the market suddenly say, "How do I show up, up as my best self?"
[00:13:11] Helen Wada: 'Cause they're selling themselves, and
[00:13:13] Sally Henderson: They are
[00:13:14] Helen Wada: people need to see who they are, and knowing yourself as a person, but actually who are you at work? And the two things, we don't take enough time to think about it. And also it changes throughout your career. So what I would've said to you five years ago or, or roll back the clock even 10 years ago, would be very different to what I will tell you now.
[00:13:41] Helen Wada: And
[00:13:41] Sally Henderson: Oh, completely. Yeah
[00:13:43] Helen Wada: it's that, a statement that then you need to revisit through your career as you grow and evolve and change.
[00:13:51] Purpose And The How
[00:13:51] Helen Wada: And something a bit like that when I talk about is purpose, because purpose can often be a big topic. But I think people, I don't know your experience, but people struggle with purpose sometimes
[00:14:03] Sally Henderson: Yeah. I think it's when it's too big, I think... And I, I have a little kind of slightly g- glib saying, but it's actually what I really mean sincerely, is that Simon Sinek obviously made a fortune out of three letters. Well, the why. And so I say, listen, if Simon Sinek is the king of why, then Sally Henderson is the queen of how, and that's what I wanna bring to purpose because I think purpose without action doesn't inspire you.
[00:14:27] Sally Henderson: It, it's actually agonizing, and it can be more harmful than good to, to know what your purpose is but have no idea how to make it real. It can become actually something that's heavy and pressurizing. You feel like you're failing and not meeting your potential, and it can become actually the counter opposite of what it should be, which is a north light, northern star, a light, a beacon, a motivator, energy giver.
[00:14:50] Sally Henderson: But I think the interesting thing I find, Helen, is when you ask somebody a very open question, the brain kinda goes, "
[00:14:55] Sally Henderson: Oh my God, I'm knackered." "
[00:14:57] Sally Henderson: What the hell?" But I use something called the power of [00:15:00] three, where you say, "Well, what are the three things you could do to help you know what your purpose is?" Or, you break it down to an instruction.
[00:15:08] Sally Henderson: What... So if I say to a client, "What is X?" Or, y- just very open, they often, they would be quite overwhelmed.
[00:15:15] Sally Henderson: But if I give them the instruction, "Can you tell me the three things you can do to get from A to B?" Or whatever the thing is they're wanting to grapple, I've never had a client go, "I just don't know," when I gi- when I reframe it into the instruction to break it down into the power of three because then the brain goes, "Oh, thank you, an instruction, a structure, a, a little map.
[00:15:35] Sally Henderson: That's not so daunting now." And then you keep using the power of three repeatedly. So I talk about this in my TEDx that I did a year or so ago, w- which actually was called Why Purpose Is Not Enough and What to Do About It. So we have such synergy, you and I, in terms of our worlds and crossover. Which was all about how, but coming at how from a slightly different angle than the book.
[00:15:54] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:15:54] Sally Henderson: But yes, if you break it down by the power of three so you get those three steps, and then you take each of those steps and you [00:16:00] say, "Right, what's the power of three to make that one work?" And, and again, and again, you can break down by three for people who really like detail. And then without even thinking about it or realizing it, oh my gosh, I've created a plan. And it's all by just giving that instruction to the brain that then becomes easier to answer. 'Cause I think purpose, like the things we've been talking about, when it was brought in, it was really needed. It was so needed in the world of work back then, and it is still needed now, but it's become... I don't know, the word I'm feeling, it's not a very elegant word, but it's become a bit slabby.
[00:16:35] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:16:35] Sally Henderson: Well, yeah, that why thing that that guy Simon Sinek, harps on about and... And people, I think, have almost got a bit bored by it,
[00:16:44] Helen Wada: it, it really is
[00:16:46] Sally Henderson: it's really vi- I do believe it's massively vital
[00:16:49] Helen Wada: I, I do too. And I, I would say the word that I think of is a bit nebulous. It's kind of, you can't, you can't put your fingers on it, and it, it's kind of there, and then there's that[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Sally Henderson: Fla- flabby nebulous, that's a great expression we've coined, we've coined today
[00:17:02] Helen Wada: she'll be coming out Let me definitely stop. Okay
[00:17:09] Sally Henderson: Coming soon to a webinar near you.
[00:17:13] Helen Wada: There's something about, it can scare people 'cause if they think, "Well, I haven't got my purpose and I'm not, I'm not fulfilling a role that's aligned to my purpose, then I'm doing something wrong." And I, I love that sort of really, repeating things and breaking things down into power of three.
[00:17:31] Helen Wada: When I think about purpose, I get people to break it down into, well, what, what... For your family, for your, your holistic purpose, your, your purpose for yourself, and then your purpose at work. A bit like your personal identity and professional ident- identity. Purpose at work. Providing for your family together.
[00:17:35] Helen Wada: Providing for me what it is. And skills to good use. It doesn't have to be this saving the earth. You could be doing it, you could have interests and passions that you have outside of the work. And I was working with a client a few weeks ago, and we were talking about, what job he wanted to do and what the, what was aligned to his purpose and what wasn't and, and this sort of realization that actually I don't have to fulfill everything I want to do from a purpose perspective with what I do from a day job.
[00:17:42] Helen Wada: And that's that separation piece, isn't it? That's the, the personal identity and the professional[00:18:00]
[00:18:23] Sally Henderson: Yeah, absolutely
[00:18:25] Helen Wada: identity piece.
[00:18:29] Sally Henderson: Yes
[00:18:30] Reframing High Stakes
[00:18:30] Helen Wada: Let's move on a bit to these high stakes, these situations where it's uncomfortable or uncertain because that's the world that we live in. What are you seeing from your work that leaders need to think about, not necessarily do, but think about differently or in a different way that's practical?
[00:18:52] Helen Wada: Because we often think about what do we need to do differently when it gets uncertain, right? What do I need to do more of? What do I [00:19:00] need to do? But in my experience, it's not necessarily just about doing, it's about being. So I'm really curious to understand from your perspective, what are you seeing? And for those people that are going through this and go, "I get it.
[00:19:12] Helen Wada: It's high stakes all of the time," what should I be thinking about?
[00:19:17] Sally Henderson: I think we should dial it back actually to some grassroots stuff. Because when you talk about high stakes and pressure, it can be very easy to try and be too complicated and too strategic and too high level and too clever about it all. But I think if we just strip it back, and this is something that came through the research in the book as well, I think it comes back to what's your relationship with high stakes actually at the beginning?
[00:19:40] Sally Henderson: Because whatever your relationship is and association with that phrase, it colors the lens through which you see high stakes. But I interviewed 25 amazing leaders, all very senior, accomplished, technically successful, high performance, from military, academia, elite sport, [00:20:00] Olympians, and C-suites, brilliant agency, creative agencies, brands, and I asked them a, the question "How do you define high stakes?"
[00:20:07] Sally Henderson: And what was really interesting is for some people it was a very positive thing, but for others it was that jeopardy and risk, because h- risk and jeopardy are always hand-in-hand with high stakes. But if you see, and aren't even aware consciously, 'cause our subconscious can be a real devil, can't it? It's often not working in our interests, ironically.
[00:20:27] Sally Henderson: But if your subconscious, through your own personal experiences and beliefs and how you've taken that language to have a meaning, if your reaction is it's dangerous, it's threatening, it's unsettling, it's difficult, then your natural reaction to it is going to be one that is not as healthy or as effective as somebody who is more positively connected with this phrase high stakes.
[00:20:47] Sally Henderson: 'Cause someone else could
[00:20:49] Helen Wada: Yes
[00:20:51] Sally Henderson: go, "Full of opportunity, lots of chances to do things new, to experiment, to move at pace, to get shit done." [00:21:00] But but if we're not, one is not aware of your natural default belief system around the phraseology of high stakes, you are almost operating with one arm, if not two, behind your back because you're then not consciously aware of your thoughts, your feelings, and your actions. So I think if you get... Just pause and, if anyone listening or watching, just to have, have a, hit the pause for a second and answer the question, what are my, what's my definition of high stakes? And look at the language that you write and then think, go in your body and go, "How's that making me feel about high stakes?" Because there's one thing that's certain, it ain't changing anytime soon. This is only going to, I think, be the state of play for years coming up. Especially, I don't even wanna use those two, two words. One begins with the beginning of the alphabet and one comes a bit later. it's just quite, I think, a distraction right now.
[00:21:55] Sally Henderson: But, but that's making, the world feel even more high stakes because there's a lot of fear. [00:22:00] So technology, to use a different phrase for it, technology is bringing a lot of fear into leadership and, and a lot of risk for people and the threat of being irrelevant, which is not insignificant So the more you can get comfortable with change, with uncertainty, with high stakes, and see it as opportunity, boost your serotonin, which then makes you more predisposed for playfulness, curiosity, bravery, and innovation, which is what we need in leadership right now, despite the reality out there.
[00:22:34] Sally Henderson: But if you have high cortisol, that fear-led reaction, fight or flight, that is proven in science to make you go down and fixate. That command and control leadership style makes people very narrow and insular and fear-led, and that is not what's gonna make you relevant and sustainable in today's world of leadership and work.
[00:22:56] Sally Henderson: So
[00:22:56] Helen Wada: No, not at all.
[00:22:58] Sally Henderson: Yeah. And think about [00:23:00] it do you have an emotional lens to high stakes where you're in it for the feelings it can create for yourself and others around belonging or meaning or outcome? Are you someone who likes to take action? So, do you like the fact that high stakes makes you feel like, yeah, make things happen, make things happen?
[00:23:15] Sally Henderson: Do you look at it as self-growth and learning? Do you also perhaps look at it as resistance? And you, you do naturally go through the lens of what is the risk versus the reward. Now none-- all those lenses and, and a couple of others did show up in my research. But what's interesting, Helen, is one lens is not enough. We-- world is moving so quickly, so complicatedly, that just having a singular lens to high stakes, because it's, it's a marathon and a sprint, high stakes, and therefore it's requiring different gears, different resistance, resilience, energy, views, actions, pause, think, reflect, recover. That's all gotta happen.
[00:23:53] Sally Henderson: So your lens has got to be shifting like the gears on a car
[00:23:56] Helen Wada: Yeah. And what you're talking about there is, I've [00:24:00] been coaching for over 10 years now, is that that thinking, reflaming, reflecting, those are skills that are not necessarily commonplace all the time in even with senior leaders that, that we have.
[00:24:15] Leading With The Body
[00:24:15] Helen Wada: And, and I want to pick up on a phrase 'cause you said something earlier about going into your body, which I, I get and I know because I do a lot of embodied work with the coaching that I do.
[00:24:26] Helen Wada: And, and talking about tapping into not just our head, heart, but also our, our gut
[00:24:32] Sally Henderson: Yes
[00:24:32] Helen Wada: again, as science tells us that we have got so many neurons in our guts that are untapped for the most part in the work that we do. What do you mean by going into your body? Just, just tell us a little bit more about that
[00:24:48] Sally Henderson: It's about connecting with gut, Helen. Our... I think again, we've... It's, it's almost a bit ironic. The more sophisticated we become, the more detached we [00:25:00] become from some of our core skills in life. Millions of years of ev- evolution, we have a gut instinct.
[00:25:07] Sally Henderson: It's, it's, it's in us. It's something we are born with.
[00:25:10] Sally Henderson: It's what we need for survival in the old days. But, we're not... But the body doesn't know, the conscious mind doesn't know that actually you're not going to die. But the gut reaction is something that it does give you great wisdom. And so many times I've worked with people, when I was either head hunting or, the 10 years plus I've been doing purely high stake leadership mentoring, and it's myself, my own self-learning.
[00:25:32] Sally Henderson: It's I kind of knew I shouldn't have done that, but I did it anyway. I just didn't listen to my gut. And your body has got incredible ability to teach and educate and inform both yourself and other people. But in this world of fast-paced technology and just the sheer rate of consuming knowledge, or not even knowledge, guff.
[00:25:55] Sally Henderson: Like so much, I'll, I'll use it, AI slop. Just so [00:26:00] bloody crap, excuse my language, is out there right now. We're so in our heads, and our heads don't have the gut instinct. They are a different, it's a different organ. It's got a different purpose. But going in your body, and I do this with clients, not all, not all clients need or want this, but sometimes the best results you get is from going completely illogical quickly.
[00:26:21] Sally Henderson: You go onto the emotional level, you go into their wisdom, you get them into a s- a body state where I actually guide them on how to go into their bodies, to get... And not to sound woo woo and all that kind of stuff, 'cause like you, I'm incredibly commercial and practical. But actually, we are human beings, and often the quickest route to commercial growth and leadership growth doesn't always come from, often doesn't come from the, the logical linear.
[00:26:51] Sally Henderson: It's, and it's again, it's so fascinating. When it's the right thing to do with people, and there's always a line. I'm not a therapist. I'm, I'm not... I stay within
[00:26:58] Sally Henderson: my,
[00:26:58] Sally Henderson: I stay within the r- my, [00:27:00] the level of my skill. But when you get people and they trust you and you, it's a trusted experience They, they know, like they have so much knowledge that they are holding.
[00:27:09] Sally Henderson: I'll say to them "Where do you feel it in your body?" "Oh, I feel it in my chest." Okay, take... What's, what's there? And sometimes I say, "Is, is, is there a color?" Which can sound completely bonkers. But, but what's really interesting is they always know, when it's the right thing to do and it's the right circumstances.
[00:27:23] Sally Henderson: They'll be like, "Oh, it's yellow." No, they don't go, "Oh, there's no color." What do you mean is there a color? They, they, they've got incredible knowledge inside of their body about things that they're holding from life. So when I talk about high stakes and mastering how you lead, I actually talk about master how you lead and how you live through high stakes because-
[00:27:43] Helen Wada: I love that phrase actually when I, when I was reading up before our podcast about how you lead and how you live, because it comes back to how the two are so intertwined. Notwithstanding the conversation about boundaries that we had at the beginning, but the two [00:28:00] of who you are and, and how you are intertwined with that, it's...
[00:28:05] Helen Wada: You are ultimately one of the same human being. You are just showing up and bringing different aspects of you to
[00:28:15] Sally Henderson: But what's so
[00:28:15] Helen Wada: parts of your life
[00:28:16] Sally Henderson: your body holds that. Your brain can, can compartmentalize, can rationalize, can move on. But we have high stakes happen at significant times through all of our development, and some of us are blessed with incredible families and supportive friends, amazing first bosses.
[00:28:34] Sally Henderson: Some of us don't have that, and toxic relationships, damaging relationships, be it from family, friends, formative years under bosses who maybe weren't great themselves. And we carry that in our bodies unless we process it effectively. We- because it, it do- it's gotta go somewhere. And interestingly, when I work with clients, and not all the time, so I'm not a counselor but...
[00:28:57] Sally Henderson: I'm not a psychotherapist. But often what [00:29:00] shows up at very successful senior leadership level are beliefs and experiences that have been laid down through other life experiences, and that is still within their bodies, and particularly within the subconscious
[00:29:16] Helen Wada: And it's, when, when we do... 'Cause I, I talk a lot about sales a- and peop- I work with a lot of individuals that want to grow their businesses, whether they're in professional services, or whether they're selling themselves into a new role, or whatever it may be.
[00:29:30] High Stakes Awareness
[00:29:30] Helen Wada: Brilliant experts that need to then grow and sell the businesses that they own.
[00:29:35] Helen Wada: But, but actually they don't like the thought of that. That makes them feel uncomfortable. The, the stakes are high when the potential new client or customer is big, right? And, and so those stakes are, are going up and, and that's where they start to feel uncomfortable because the stakes are high. It is kind of flipping it a different way, but it's nevertheless...
[00:29:57] Helen Wada: And I talk about using your body to regulate [00:30:00] yourself as well, Sally, because I think whilst there's a lot of data and intelligence in our guts, we actually can use our bodies to self-regulate
[00:30:12] Sally Henderson: A hundred percent help
[00:30:12] Helen Wada: the stakes are high.
[00:30:14] Body Regulation Tools
[00:30:14] Helen Wada: And, and for me, number one, it's the awareness and recognizing that you are in an, a high... Because
[00:30:22] Helen Wada: if you don't, you're kind of flying blind and you probably miss the point anyway. Like,
[00:30:27] Helen Wada: if you're there and you're going, "This is a high-stakes situation, it is really important to me," we all get those butterflies. We all get the nervousness. And actually, you can recenter yourself by using your body to kick on,
[00:30:43] Sally Henderson: Oh
[00:30:44] Helen Wada: the conversation in a direction of travel where you want to take it
[00:30:49] Sally Henderson: I could not agree with you more.
[00:30:51] Power Pose Story
[00:30:51] Sally Henderson: And, I developed my career into becoming a professional speaker, which I used to be terrified of. I'm the walking cliché. I really am. I [00:31:00] was utterly paralyzed by the thought of public speaking many, many years ago now. But I, I... First ever time I spoke to 200 people, you would've literally laughed if you could've seen me.
[00:31:11] Sally Henderson: But I share this story because I... it was my body much more than my mind that actually set me up to, to perform well when the stakes are high. 200 people looking at you and you're like, "Oh my God, this is my baptism of fire." So I went into the toilet. I was literally necking Rescue Remedy from the bottle.
[00:31:29] Sally Henderson: Let alone a few dr- drops. I was like, "Oh my God, need some Rescue Remedy." But I was doing the classic Amy Cuddy power pose. It's an oldie but goodie for a reason. But where you stand like an X. But do you know what? When I was doing that in the toilet 'cause I watched her TEDx, I put my arms up and I really just got into my body.
[00:31:46] Sally Henderson: So I shut my eyes and went into my body and just breathed very consciously, and I literally consciously dropped my shoulders 'cause I could feel all the tension, and I could feel my physiology change [00:32:00] from doing that exercise. I mean, A, my brain believed in her 'cause she does a very good TED Talk, so I was like, "You're talking sense, lady," which helps.
[00:32:09] Sally Henderson: But then the physiology of doing that, making the X and focusing on breath totally changed therefore how I went out on that stage.
[00:32:20] Sally Henderson: Yeah
[00:32:22] Breath And Practical Anchors
[00:32:22] Helen Wada: And it, it, it, it resonates so much because I'm just thinking about how my relationship with the, the power of breath, and I even talk about it in the book. If you'd asked me five years ago about the power of breath and mindfulness and, I'm, I'm not woo-woo, I'm, I'm very practical. I'm like, "Oh, I wanna make it practical," and,
[00:32:42] Sally Henderson: Me too
[00:32:42] Helen Wada: this mean?"
[00:32:43] Helen Wada: And I'm not very good at yoga, and so is that, but when I... Before I set up the Human Advantage, I, I did my master, masters into the advanced coaching diploma, and so that was taking my coaching from a foundational level to a more [00:33:00]
[00:33:01] Helen Wada: embodied level. And that's where I really explored
[00:33:03] Helen Wada: the power of...
[00:33:05] Helen Wada: And you can just with a few short breaths recenter yourself.
[00:33:11] Helen Wada: And finding ways that work for you, it doesn't have to be full-on mindfulness before you go onto a program, anything like that. And I would say to people that actually if you are going into these situations, you can use your breath. Find something that works for you. Is it uncrossing your legs and putting your feet flat on the floor?
[00:33:32] Helen Wada: Is it picking up a pen and just holding it for a moment? Is it a pause before you say something? Or even better, ask a question. 'Cause I find that a- using questions can actually help slow you down when the stakes are high
[00:33:49] Sally Henderson: Yeah, 'cause pace isn't always your friend in high stakes,
[00:33:52] Helen Wada: No
[00:33:53] Sally Henderson: be a bit counterintuitive. Because if you're acting from a place of stress and reaction, you're not thinking clearly, and [00:34:00] especially if you're energetically depleted, and I don't know one human right now, actually, Helen, who probably isn't a bit
[00:34:06] Sally Henderson: energetically depleted with all the stuff that's going on in the wider world and the news and the uncertainty. So h- having that ability to just center, take a moment, take a breath, literally not to sound a bit, overkill, but it is literally life-changing to do that.
[00:34:24] Intentional Emotions
[00:34:24] Sally Henderson: I think it comes back to your consciousness and what you're intentionally thinking about, because so many of us aren't intentionally thinking at all, and it's those subconscious voices that get in the driving street.
[00:34:36] Sally Henderson: I talk about the lovely film, for anyone either who just likes cartoons or does have children but Inside Out. Whether you are a parent or not, I d- I... Inside Out, which is all about the emotions in a little girl's brain and her islands that kind of, the, the connection with them break as she grows.
[00:34:53] Sally Henderson: I just think that's such a simple and beautiful and charming but also really accurate way of talking about our [00:35:00] emotions and how they can control us. But if you take a moment to pause and become more intentional about the emotions you want to choose to drive you, it's, it's a game changer, especially when the stakes are high
[00:35:17] Helen Wada: And it, it just resonates as music to my ears when I come from a, a coachee. I talk about commercial coaching, that commercial focus, but we have a coaching approach, and this is what we're talking about. It's about bringing these EQ skills in. It's taking the time. It's having a pause.
[00:35:34] No Time To Pause
[00:35:36] Helen Wada: But we've got listeners that are ra- they're running day jobs where their diaries are back to back.
[00:35:39] Helen Wada: They've got big teams, they've got global teams at, at both ends of the day. They're early morning with Asia. They're back end of the day with the US. They've got teams in person. They've got teams that are hybrid, and they are thinking, "I get this. I'm starting to get it. I'm hearing it more. But I haven't got the space."
[00:35:59] Helen Wada: What would you say to them?[00:36:00]
[00:36:02] Sally Henderson: I'd say I hear you first and foremost because I think the ways of working have not regulated themselves since it all went crazy with, with the pandemic. No one has the right answer, and actually peop- it's so interesting, Helen. If you come on a Zoom call or Teams or Google, whatever, and someone is two minutes late, they're like, "Oh, I'm so sorry I'm two minutes late."
[00:36:27] Sally Henderson: And you're like... But in, in the real world, if you were doing a per- a face-to-face meeting, you would never apologize for being two minutes late in, in the way that we do with, with, Zoom and, and the pace. So I just think it comes back to being brave enough to work out what works for you and take charge.
[00:36:48] Executive Assistant Leverage
[00:36:48] Sally Henderson: So a lot of senior people will have an executive assistant, and if they don't, they should because I think it's crazy expecting any executive assis- executive leader in today's pace to not have someone [00:37:00] supporting their world because the cost, the lost productivity from doing tasks that really someone else could do much quicker and better is, is to me mind-blowing.
[00:37:09] Sally Henderson: I've, I've advised so many CEOs to get... who haven't had a EA. I'm like, "Okay, I just want you to get an EA. You just have to get one, a good one." And they often fight me, but then... and then they do it, and they're like, "I don't know how I coped before I got this person in my life."
[00:37:23] Helen Wada: Do you know what? It was one of the first things that I did when I set up on my own. And I, I, I ran for a while without one, and, and it's, it's game, it's game changing. And I, I have to say, it surprises me. It doesn't surprise me in, in the world that we're operating in, but the number of businesses that I work with and they say, "Oh, my executive support has been taken away from me
[00:37:46] Sally Henderson: Cos say, pop baby
[00:37:47] Helen Wada: cut, cost saving."
[00:37:48] Helen Wada: I'm like, "Oh my goodness, do you understand the productivity loss by getting your senior people to do their expenses or to book a meeting [00:38:00] room?"
[00:38:00] Sally Henderson: Or their travel or
[00:38:01] Helen Wada: it's just
[00:38:03] Sally Henderson: It's mind
[00:38:03] Sally Henderson: b-
[00:38:04] Sally Henderson: to me, it's mi- mind-blowing. I mean, the cost of that person doing all of that admin, which is a skill in itself. To be a good EA is a real art form. I have an amazing EA,
[00:38:14] Helen Wada: A- absolutely
[00:38:16] Sally Henderson: I really rely on her, and we're a team. And I think, again, there's the emotional support we shouldn't overlook from having someone who's got your back.
[00:38:23] Sally Henderson: You- but someone who knows your rhythm.
[00:38:25] Fix Your Rhythm
[00:38:37] Sally Henderson: So in the REAL method, the- each of the letters stands for role, emotion, acceleration, and leadership. And in the role section, which is fascinating 'cause most people don't know what their job is that's a- maybe a conversation for another question. But there's a tool I've created called the five Rs, and one of those is rhythm.
[00:38:44] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:38:44] Sally Henderson: the reason why people are not having the ability to reflect, to pause, to look after themselves well is because their rhythm is shot to bits.
[00:38:52] Sally Henderson: I mean, you wouldn't... If, if a job advert said, "Come and work here, and you won't even have time to pee," let [00:39:00] alone eat, and that's going to be, a, a mark you can use for your success and seniority, you wouldn't apply.
[00:39:06] Sally Henderson: You just wouldn't apply. But everybody within certain boundaries, you do have things that you can control. So how do you make your rhythm work better for you? And I do a lot of this. When I do the Pipi, personal identity, professional identity with clients, we actually often look at rhythm in both of those because if you're constantly feeling guilty that you're not showing up privately for the people you care about doesn't have to be a family member.
[00:39:35] Sally Henderson: Am I l- very aware not everybody's in that position through choice as well. They, that's not what they want. But if you're not making time to exercise, to eat, to rest, to do nothing or to do the things that take energy to show up as a partner, a parent or, sibling or whoever, if that's not rhythm that's well-established in your private life, it, it overlaps into your professional life and vice versa, and then you just, you're just knackered and you're what I call a neither either.[00:40:00]
[00:40:00] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:40:00] Sally Henderson: succeeding. But if you can step back and go, "What rhythms do I need to have, want to have, that will set me up for success and to be optimized in, in my performance?" And if that is saying, actually, I do, I am gonna put a breaker in, and I do get it. For people in big organizations, it's not as easy as I'm making it sound, and it's not, but there's always a way.
[00:40:21] Sally Henderson: There is always a way. It comes down to will, to belief, to energy, 'cause doing this kind of stuff takes energy.
[00:40:28] Rhythm Case Studies
[00:40:28] Sally Henderson: I'll give you a very quick example. I was working with a global chief transformation officer.
[00:40:33] Sally Henderson: Where were you?
[00:40:34] Helen Wada: title, isn't
[00:40:35] Sally Henderson: Yeah, it just rolls off the tongue. But, I mean, one of the most amazing guys, brain was just incredible, and he was about to have a young baby, and this was his second marriage, second family, and he'd made a lot of mistakes, which he openly shared about his first.
[00:40:49] Sally Henderson: And he goes, "I don't want to do that again. I want to be present." 'Cause being in a global role can sound very glamorous and, Successful, but it also means late nights. If you're working with the west side coast of America or, the [00:41:00] time zones you mentioned, that's exhausting. So I said, "Well, let's look at your rhythm."
[00:41:04] Sally Henderson: I also told them to get a better EA because the EA they had at the time was not very good at gatekeeping. That was kind of the role. So perhaps you're gonna be getting someone who's more, more, more right for your particular needs as an EA. Not
[00:41:15] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:41:15] Sally Henderson: that person wasn't right, but for them it wasn't working.
[00:41:19] Sally Henderson: But I said, "Why don't you also contract with your wife what they're going to be happy with privately?" So you might contract with your wife or husband, depending, who's in the... But this particular example is the wife. That you're going to take late night calls on a Tuesday and a Thursday because you do need to do that.
[00:41:38] Sally Henderson: They're, they're doing a lot of work in, in that, in the west coast of America at the time. So you're going to say, yeah, if they want a call, they can have it, but you're gonna put it in your diary on a Tuesday and a Thursday, and you're gonna contract with your wife, who does have to agree to this, that they're happy to not feel pissed off if you're working late.
[00:41:54] Sally Henderson: But that means on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you don't work late. You have a [00:42:00] cutoff, and that's also contracted. Another example of a guy who was a chief science officer. He was feeling very out of kilter in himself because he was getting no time to read and learn.
[00:42:10] Sally Henderson: As a chief science officer, you kind of gotta keep up with the science and the data and what's happening.
[00:42:15] Sally Henderson: Just like a chief transformation officer, and this person was feeling incredibly guilty because they weren't showing up well domestically. They were always kind of they were behind themselves professionally. But, the only thing it took to help them feel more back in control of their life and getting energy and, and nurture and, inspiration, was we just blocked out 8:30 to 9:00, whether it was every day or three times a week, I can't remember.
[00:42:39] Sally Henderson: But in their rhythm, we blocked out 8:30 to 9:00 was reading time. Non-negotiable reading time. And that just, the spark in this person's eye when we said, "Well, should we do that then?" if it's important to you, you're not getting to it. A, for your own energy and wellbeing and inspiration, but also practically for your job, you need to know this stuff.[00:43:00]
[00:43:00] Sally Henderson: Why don't we make a rhythm for it so it gets the right attention and protection and those boundaries? And literally, they skipped off the Zoom call having got this clarity. Now, it sounds ridiculously simple, doesn't it? But it's not. And this is the thing, that if you're not, if you're just in autopilot and you're just back to back to back to back to back to back to back, then are you really being efficient?
[00:43:22] Helen Wada: A- and, and this is where it, it, goodness, we- we've come full circle and it, and it just reminds me of, 'cause a lot of what I talk about is business development and sales, and what people struggle with is when they're doing the doing, they, they struggle with creating the time to build the relationships and the contacts and conversations.
[00:43:39] Helen Wada: But again, it's about prioritization, it's about boundaries. It's about when is a good time for you to do that. For you, it might be in the morning. For me, it might be in the afternoon. For you, it might be a Monday. For me, it might be a Friday. And, and so there is, there is no one size fits all. But it's about, it comes full circle to where [00:44:00] you started, we started this conversation about your personal life, your professional life, knowing that they both exist, acknowledging they both exist, putting boundaries around each. But for me, coming back to being human is recognizing that they're intertwined, that if you want to be successful at home and successful in your work-life balance and career progression and everything you want to do and achieve, it's about taking a step back.
[00:44:30] Helen Wada: It's about acknowledging that high stakes are everywhere, and that actually you are the one that can make a difference.
[00:44:37] Helen Wada: But a pause and a reflect is a, is an important part of that
[00:44:43] Sally Henderson: It's vital.
[00:44:45] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:44:46] Sally Henderson: Funnily enough, again, just to, 'cause the book is so prevalent in my world right
[00:44:50] Helen Wada: I, that way
[00:44:51] Recovery Fuels Performance
[00:44:51] Sally Henderson: I did the, from the re- research, I looked at the nine... I was able to identify nine high-performance leadership traits, of which the top three were [00:45:00] trust, energy, and courage. So when I asked these amazing leaders, "What do you think it takes to be a high-performance leader, especially when the stakes are high?
[00:45:06] Sally Henderson: What traits do people need?" They were the top three: trust, courage, energy. Trust was the winner by the mile, and then courage and energy were, energy were quite neck and neck. But what made the top nine, although it was the last, but it did make the top nine, was recovery,
[00:45:22] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:45:23] Sally Henderson: actually prioritizing. And Kath Bishop, who is a fellow author with us both as well from...
[00:45:29] Helen Wada: And was the first guest on this podcast,
[00:45:31] Sally Henderson: there you go. What a, what a lovely
[00:45:33] Helen Wada: Wonderful woman. Hello, Cath, if you're listening
[00:45:36] Sally Henderson: Yeah, amazing. But she talked about being that Olympian and how her first Olympics as a rower didn't go to plan, and what she had to really bake into her rhythm
[00:45:47] Sally Henderson: Was the importance of recovery. And if you're not baking in proper recovery, and whatever that means to you.
[00:45:55] Sally Henderson: So recovery for some... One of my friends, she loves fitness. I couldn't think of anything worse. I couldn't think of [00:46:00] anything worse to recover than to put myself through a HIIT or something. That's just not my idea of recovery.
[00:46:06] Helen Wada: What your idea of recovery
[00:46:06] Sally Henderson: gosh, I... Do you know what? It's a bit of a guilty confession.
[00:46:10] Helen Wada: Oh
[00:46:11] Sally Henderson: I love crap TV. I love really crap TV.
[00:46:16] Sally Henderson: I'm not gonna show exactly how crap it all are, but...
[00:46:20] Helen Wada: Even
[00:46:21] Sally Henderson: because to me, that is chewing gum for my mind, and it allows me to switch off and just not think. I have a very active mind, and the, the work I do, I love it, but it's complicated. It's high pace. It's high stakes on personally and also for my clients, which is why I choose, it's a thing I actively enjoy and, and a- and adore. So for me, and I've just never been a fitness bunny. Oh, would love to find that gene, which just, you know-
[00:46:45] Helen Wada: I've, I've been trying for, for a number of years. I, I've kind of got to a few weights, but I do it because I have to do it rather than because I absolutely love it. Maybe one day I'll love it.
[00:46:54] Sally Henderson: Reformer Pilates is the current thing, I think.
[00:46:57] Helen Wada: yes, me too.
[00:46:58] Sally Henderson: Yeah,
[00:46:59] Helen Wada: If I can get into [00:47:00] the classes, Sally, that's another, that's another rhythm and logistics that we'll need a whole nother conversation on that
[00:47:06] Sally Henderson: A- absolutely.
[00:47:07] Bravery To Be Human
[00:47:09] Sally Henderson: But it's that recovery that being human, yeah, not to sound, again, too simplistic or flippant, but being human takes energy. You talked about the importance of relationship creation and showing up and knowing the right rhythm for when to do that. But that all takes energy, and investment, and putting yourself out there, especially in sales, for rejection.
[00:47:29] Sally Henderson: It's something you and I have to do all the time as founders. We both come from sales backgrounds, and sometimes that's not easy. Sometimes you're like, "Oh, I think I'll just fiddle with something internal to pr- convince myself I'm feeling productive," 'cause I don't quite fancy that, that bravery it takes to go, "Hello, would you like a conversation?"
[00:47:48] Helen Wada: Well, shall we follow up from that conversation that we had that
[00:47:51] Sally Henderson: Yes, here I am again.
[00:47:52] Helen Wada: back to me? Hello, it's me again
[00:47:54] Sally Henderson: Yeah. But to be, to do that authentically,
[00:47:57] Helen Wada: Yes
[00:47:58] Sally Henderson: Takes a lot of [00:48:00] energy, and if you're not baking in consciously recovery, whatever form it comes in. For some people, recovery comes from being around people. For other people, it's about being solo, having time just to not have to think about anyone.
[00:48:13] Sally Henderson: It, it, it's a whole plethora of,
[00:48:16] Helen Wada: Absolutely
[00:48:16] Sally Henderson: it... That word, like what does high stakes mean to you? What does recovery mean to you? 'Cause most people don't actually know, interestingly. And also what's interesting is that what was recovery for you in that chapter of your life, be it leadership, job, family, may not now be the most appropriate recovery for this chapter of your life, 'cause things have changed inevitably. So, so I just think it's about having the bravery, actually, Helen, to be human in the first place. 'Cause it, it's vulnerable, it's messy, it's unpredictable, it's a rollercoaster. But if you commit to it, then personally and professionally I just believe your life is richer. Not always easier, [00:49:00] but richer.
[00:49:01] Sally Henderson: The more human you are, the richer your life will be in many ways
[00:49:06] Helen Wada: I love it.
[00:49:07] Reflection Questions
[00:49:07] Helen Wada: I'm conscious of time. We could talk all day, all afternoon. But I always end with a couple of, a couple of things. We've covered so much, Sally, and your words of wisdom on HumanWise have been... It's been a delight to have you on the show. It really, it really has. And, and there is so much wisdom there.
[00:49:25] Helen Wada: When I was, when I was naming this and then ultimately the book was HumanWise, it... Wisdom for me is, is such... It, it's more than knowledge. It's about real understanding of and experience and bringing that to the world. So, so thank you for sharing that. But if I was to pin you down and say, "What would be your one top tip for listeners?"
[00:49:47] Helen Wada: And then a good coach loves a good question, so what would be the one question that you would ask for people to reflect on having listened to our conversation this afternoon?
[00:49:58] Sally Henderson: Very good question. [00:50:00] I think instinctively I go to, to, well, I can break the rules a bit, two things,
[00:50:05] Helen Wada: Yeah, go ahead
[00:50:07] Sally Henderson: What's it made you think having listened to our conversation? But also, how has it made you feel?
[00:50:17] Helen Wada: Oh, I love it. It's one of my favorites.
[00:50:19] Sally Henderson: 'Cause there lies your answers. There lies your answers. They're very different things, but y- you... Some people will be coming away feeling inspired.
[00:50:26] Sally Henderson: Other people might be feeling overwhelmed. Other people might be feeling a bit tense or a bit worrying, 'cause they're thinking, "Christ, I wanna do all of that, but h- I don't know how to do it."
[00:50:35] Sally Henderson: It's so, so they could be feeling stressed. There's a whole range of how people will be feeling, but how you're feeling as well as what you're thinking, which may actually be counter or or sorry, opposite of each other that's where real insight lies, and that will then help you both go forward with your why and your how
[00:50:54] Helen Wada: And it's the how of high performance
[00:50:55] Helen Wada: that matters
[00:50:56] Sally Henderson: it certainly is.
[00:50:59] Real Score Test
[00:50:59] Helen Wada: One top [00:51:00] tip. What would be your top tip if you're in a high-stakes situation, you've got a crazy week, you're listening to this, haven't yet made time to answer and reflect on that question? What's your one top tip?
[00:51:13] Sally Henderson: Ask yourself this question and use a technique called the real score test. Ask yourself between naught and ten, but I cannot have seven, 'cause seven is where high performance hides. Naught till ten, how committed am I to whatever you wanna put, to becoming a better leader, to having more recovery, to resting, to mastering my how, to conquering my why?
[00:51:38] Sally Henderson: It would be too presumptuous of me to give you the whole question, but I can give you the structure. So out of naught to ten, use the real score test. You cannot have seven. How committed am I to X? And you might even build in it to achieve Y. Give yourself a real score test, and that will give you information.
[00:51:59] Sally Henderson: And it's not about [00:52:00] PR. It's not about, "Oh, I must be an eight." if you're a three, brilliant. You're bloody honest. Well done, you.
[00:52:06] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:52:07] Sally Henderson: You know? Because again, the interesting thing is when I use that technique with clients, they always know what they are.
[00:52:12] Helen Wada: Yeah
[00:52:13] Sally Henderson: They often want seven 'cause it's easy and it's, it's safe, but it's never real
[00:52:18] Helen Wada: Yeah. And it's the real that matters.
[00:52:21] Sally Henderson: Yes
[00:52:22] Helen Wada: Brilliant. Fabulous to have you on the show, Sally.
[00:52:25] Where To Find Sally
[00:52:25] Helen Wada: Tell us if people have enjoyed the conversation, where can they find you? Where can they get ahold of the book?
[00:52:29] Sally Henderson: Thank you. Well, my website sallyhenderson.co.uk has everything on there. It has the podcast, which is also called The How of High Performance, because the conversations I did with those amazing leaders were so rich, so plentiful, I could not get it all in a book. So I released the conversations and the raw research for the book as a podcast series, which drops every Thursday.
[00:52:49] Sally Henderson: I think there's about four episodes that are live. Everyone from the group chief marketing officer of NatWest through to the director of operations for BAFTA. They're incredible humans being very real [00:53:00] about high performance. And you can also get the book links there on any good retailer, Amazon, Waterstones, independent bookstores.
[00:53:07] Sally Henderson: Yeah, but everything is on the website sallyhenderson.co.uk
[00:53:11] Helen Wada: Wonderful.
[00:53:12] Closing Thanks
[00:53:12] Helen Wada: Well, it's been
[00:53:13] Helen Wada: a pleasure to have you on the show. Look forward to seeing you next week. Good luck with the launch,
[00:53:18] Sally Henderson: Thank you so much.
[00:53:19] Helen Wada: it's gonna be a huge success
[00:53:20] Sally Henderson: Appreciate it, and thank you for having me on. Loved our conversation
[00:53:23] Helen Wada: Oh, it's been amazing. Thanks, Sally