Ep66: Building Human Wise Organisations in the Age of AI with Perry Timms
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What does it take to build organisations where people genuinely thrive while delivering sustainable business performance? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by Perry Timms, internationally recognised HR thinker, organisational development expert, and author, to explore why the future of work depends on putting people, purpose, and humanity at the centre of business.
Drawing on more than three decades of experience in business transformation and organisational development, Perry shares why organisations must rethink traditional models of leadership, performance, and work itself. Together, Helen and Perry discuss AI, organisational design, meaningful work, trust, and why the organisations that succeed tomorrow will be those that remain deeply human today.
This is an inspiring conversation for leaders, HR professionals, founders, and anyone passionate about creating workplaces where both people and organisations flourish.
Topics Discussed:
Why human-centred organisations outperform in the long term
The future of work in the age of AI
Purpose as a driver of sustainable performance
Organisational design for modern workplaces
Trust, autonomy, and meaningful work
Why profit should be an outcome, not the purpose
Leadership that enables people to thrive
Balancing technology with humanity
The changing role of HR in business transformation
Building organisations fit for the future
Timestamps:
00:00 – 03:59 | Introduction to Perry Timms and his journey into organisational development
04:00 – 08:15 | What it means to be human at work
08:16 – 13:45 | Why organisations exist beyond profit
13:46 – 19:30 | Human-centred organisational design
19:31 – 25:40 | AI, technology, and the future of work
25:41 – 31:20 | Trust, autonomy, and creating meaningful work
31:21 – 37:10 | Leadership for the next generation of organisations
37:11 – 42:30 | HR's role in enabling business performance
42:31 – 47:45 | Practical ways organisations become more human
47:46 – End | Perry's leadership reflection and top tip
Read the episode blog here
About Perry Timms:
Perry Timms has over three decades of experience in business change and performance, with the last 23 years in HR/Organisation Development. He ranked Number 1 in HR's Most Influential Thinkers 2022 (his fifth inclusion in that list) and is now in the HR Most Influential Hall of Fame. He is a 4x Guest Professor, a 2x TEDx speaker, a 3x Author, 4x Engagement 101 Global Influencer plus 2024’s Global People & Culture Icon. Perry is a Chartered Member of the CIPD, a Fellow of the RSA and in 2024 was honoured with a Lifetime Achievement Award for his work in self-managed, democratic organisations, and a Thinkers 360 Top 100 Global HR Influencer.
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:27] Welcome and Guest Intro
[00:00:27] Helen Wada: Welcome to another episode of HumanWise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Perry Timms with me this afternoon. Perry, we're both sort of sweating at opposite ends of the
[00:00:40] Perry Timms: Yeah
[00:00:40] Helen Wada: country through this. It's a, a little bit warm today. I'm really delighted to have this conversation, Perry. We've been exchanging messages for a while now watching your work.
[00:00:50] Helen Wada: Just for the listeners out there, a little bit about you and who you are.
[00:00:54] Helen Wada: You've got over three decades of experience in business change and performance, with really the last [00:01:00] 23 spent particularly in HR and organizational development, having been ranked number one in HR's Most Influential Thinkers 2022. And now in the HR Most Influential Hall of Fame. I feel very honored
[00:01:15] Helen Wada: to have you.
[00:01:16] Helen Wada: on HumanWise, Perry. Guest professor, double TED speaker. You've written three books you brave man. I've done one. I'm not sure if there'll be a second, but we'll see.
[00:01:27] Perry Timms: bet there is
[00:01:28] Helen Wada: globally influencer and generally focused on building a better business world is what I read, how to make business a better place to be for the people that work within it. You're a charter member of the CIPD, fellow of the RSA, and have also been honored with a lifetime achievement award for your work in self-managed democratic organizations, and as a Thinkers360 top 100 global HR influencer. There's lots in there, Perry. I'm [00:02:00] really looking forward to diving deeper and hearing more about the work that you do and
[00:02:03] Helen Wada: some of the perspectives that you have
[00:02:05] Perry’s Career Journey
[00:02:05] Perry Timms: Yeah, I mean, none of those things were on my bucket list when I left school. Council house boy from Northampton, parents were shoe factory workers. When you're from Northampton, that's right up in the siege.
[00:02:16] Perry Timms: I was interested in the sort of clerical side of work. I wasn't very drawn towards anything manual.
[00:02:21] Perry Timms: I just wasn't very good at it. So it was quite natural I ended up in an office, but I started not in a university sort of transfer. I went to the civil service, started
[00:02:30] Perry Timms: to work there, and and after about three or four years, I got involved in projects, and I suddenly came to life in project environments thinking, "Wow, how...
[00:02:36] Perry Timms: Who knew I was good at this stuff?" And it was all about tech back in the day, so it was mainframes into desktops into web services. So I grew up with a lot of tech. Had a bit of a flair for it. But the thing that interested me most was how you have to change the way business runs through tech, and how you have to change how people do their work through tech as well, and I really enjoyed that last bit, so it, it ended up with me jumping into the [00:03:00] learning and development side of HR.
[00:03:01] Perry Timms: So that was about 20-odd years ago, as you said. And as soon as I got in, it was almost like I opened up a whole new avenue of opportunity around org
[00:03:09] Perry Timms: design, change, performance, learning, talent, all that. So, when I say to people I work in HR, they almost instantly think I'm in the hiring, firing game, and I'm like, "No, I'm all
[00:03:20] Perry Timms: the bits in between," which is where all the fun is.
[00:03:22] Perry Timms: So there's definitely something in that sort of calling.
[00:03:25] HumanWise Organizations
[00:03:25] Perry Timms: But yes I've been interested in organizations that actually combine the two words of your book. They're very human, and they're very wise about why they're here, how they show up, what they do, and how they sustain that. 'Cause I think a lot of people get really hooked on shareholder value and profit, and forget the reason they even started in the first place, of which profit then becomes an outcome not the thing you exist for.
[00:03:47] Perry Timms: It's the outcome that shows you do it well and repeatedly well and that the world still needs you. And I think there's something about if that's the calling, the world still needs your enterprise. How do you get people to come to it [00:04:00] who wanna do their best work in order to do that? That's always been a kind of puzzling thought in my mind.
[00:04:05] Perry Timms: So how wise are organizations in the way they look after their humans? That's how I'd flip your book title for the kind of work I do. So a, a client once said to me recently actually, they sort of said, "Ah, a bit like the intro you gave, "I wanna describe the work you do." And they said, "Your work is about work, isn't it?"
[00:04:21] Perry Timms: I was like, "Yeah, it is. My work is about work." I don't build anything except work for people, so that's kind of me in a nutshell.
[00:04:31] Helen Wada: It's interesting to hear your journey and trajectory, that you never intended to come into this space. I mean, I've got a 16-year-old son that's just taken GCSEs and looking at A levels, and has got absolutely no clue about, careers so far. And I think that's actually fine.
[00:04:46] Helen Wada: That's okay.
[00:04:47] Helen Wada: A lot of us, try things, evolve into... If you'd asked me I say when I talk to people is, if you'd asked me 20, 30 years ago that I'd be running a [00:05:00] business about sales and coaching and leadership, and have written a book, I would be like,
[00:05:05] Perry Timms: Yeah.
[00:05:05] Helen Wada: way in a million years."
[00:05:07] Helen Wada: Which is different to some people that might set a self target and
[00:05:10] Helen Wada: be, "I'm gonna do
[00:05:10] Helen Wada: this, this, and that."
[00:05:11] AI and Being Human
[00:05:11] Helen Wada: But I do think particularly as the world is changing so much right now, though ironically, listening to what you were saying there, your role evolved around organizations, technology, how do we work around technology? Quite frankly, if we use the word AI or replace AI with technology, we're not doing much dissimilar to that today
[00:05:38] Helen Wada: in
[00:05:38] Perry Timms: Tak? Tak
[00:05:40] Helen Wada: And I think what's fascinating is there's been so much over the last 18 months of not only investment in AI, but also investment in technology, that organizations and leaders are starting to go, "Well, well what does this mean for us? What does this mean for our people?" And I guess that brings me [00:06:00] onto my first question that we'll kick off with, and we'll just see where the conversation goes.
[00:06:03] Helen Wada: But what does being human at work mean to you? You talk about a humanness and being wise around it, but what does being human at work mean to you, Perry?
[00:06:12] Perry Timms: Yeah. I mean, ironically, I go back to 5th century BC, Aristotle who coined the frame eudaimonia, which means a couple of things really. It's almost like a prevailing sense of flourishing. So it's not just hedonistic happiness, it's that you feel like I'm living my best life all the time.
[00:06:29] Perry Timms: So it's kind of that. But it also translates into the highest form of human good. I- it feels like you're doing something which is almost beyond you 'cause it's so good. It's like a calling. Now, I'm not suggesting that everybody at work needs to chase that immediately, because that feels a bit lofty for a lot of people.
[00:06:47] Perry Timms: But I'll give you a couple of examples. When I've worked with clients before, I often quote this one. I work with a company that do a lot of refuse collection, and so I was really interested in people who end up doing that work, 'cause I'm sure that's [00:07:00] not most people's desirous career, right? But we need people who do that.
[00:07:03] Perry Timms: So I went and spoke to the teams in the cabs and I said, "Look how do you get anything from this work? Like, where do you find the joy or the meaning or anything?" They looked at each other and they just went, "All of us." like the team they were with is the most important thing to them.
[00:07:18] Perry Timms: And then second, they came up with the fact that if they don't do what they do, like the streets are dirty and polluted and rat infested and somebody has to keep a sense of order about what we throw away. And they really genuinely saw their role as essential to a civic society. I'm like, "Wow, that's like amazing."
[00:07:37] Perry Timms: They're like, "Nobody told you to say that, did they?" They're like, "Well, no, we just know the consequences if we don't do it, that th- there's a whole chain reaction of not good stuff that happens." I said, "But what gets you up when it's a cold November morning?" They're like, "Well, because if I choose to have a duvet day, I know I'm letting the team down, so I don't do that.
[00:07:56] Perry Timms: I turn up." So this camaraderie was almost like, wow, this is... [00:08:00] And I s- I then found out that actually has a term, and it was a beautiful piece of research by somebody who's now died, sadly, Sigal Barsade, and she coined the phrase companionate love, almost like an affection for your fellow colleague that is deeper than just a friendship or a transactional role It's wow, that's when you see people where the chips are down, where the surge is on, they just go link arms, let's just sort this out, let's solve this problem.
[00:08:27] Perry Timms: And we saw it in COVID, didn't we? We saw it in the responses to disasters and so on, and it's just like it shouldn't take that for us to realize what being human at work really means. But sometimes in the extremes, we need to catch ourselves going, but if we didn't have a kind of bond, if we weren't relational to each other, if we didn't trust and believe in each other, would we have done that well?
[00:08:48] Perry Timms: I don't think we would've done. So it's almost like you have to measure it on the emergency extension of who you are and what you do. But every day you're building potentially that strong relational sense of connection. [00:09:00] A- and I think there's something amazing in that, that we just don't recognize it.
[00:09:04] Perry Timms: We've sort of tuned it out 'cause it's pressure and meetings and targets and everything else. But ultimately, it's like, what am I doing as part of something that's helping other people? If you remind yourself of that, that, that's what being human at work feels to me
[00:09:20] Helen Wada: I love that, and I totally acknowledge that. When we think of the, the, the times when we've been committed and the times that you thrive at work, and I get what you say about that desire to be happy at work, to thrive, and I think there will be some people that absolutely get that.
[00:09:36] Helen Wada: There are other people that will be more skeptical and that's also fine. In the work that we do when we're talking about sales and actually winning work, we flip things on our head and start to talk about you. I was talking to a lady this morning, and she said, "Well, tell me what you do."
[00:09:52] Helen Wada: And I said, "Well, we start with how you show up." The H of the human in Hu- human wise is how you show up, [00:10:00] and it's got nothing to do with sales, and it's got nothing to do with process, and it's got not even anything to do with your clients yet. I mean, clearly we get there. But for me, understanding who you are, what matters to you,
[00:10:15] Helen Wada: why you are doing something,
[00:10:18] Helen Wada: and it's not that big lofty purpose that we save the world.
[00:10:21] Helen Wada: We break it down. Its purpose... If you went back 10 years, there was almost too much around purpose, and then people got cynical about it. And it's I can't link my job on a day-to-day basis to where I want to be. You... For me, it's about uncovering what is the purpose of the role
[00:10:41] Perry Timms: Yeah.
[00:10:42] Helen Wada: you need collectively to support
[00:10:43] Perry Timms: for? Yeah, totally that. And I think I...
[00:10:47] Helen Wada: we don't think about it
[00:10:48] Perry Timms: No, I saw versions of it throughout my career where I thought I did... I was good at that. And I recently sort of found a phrase, it's almost like those skills found me. I don't know whether I had it in me, [00:11:00] but those skills found me and they went, "You'd be all right at this."
[00:11:03] Perry Timms: And
[00:11:03] Perry Timms: In a kind of characterization sense. I didn't know, but I sort of explored it and then it was like, actually, I enjoy this and I'm not bad at it either. So I think we're all looking for that, almost those things that define who we are and that are important to us, like you said. So again, you're right, the purpose thing doesn't have to be the noble cause in its, definition.
[00:11:23] Perry Timms: It's the, what's my version of that? What's the bit I'm doing that perhaps if I didn't do that, it would jeopardize that happening in the first place? And I used an example on a podcast only last week where, you go into a hotel and there's somebody behind the desk and they have a name badge on.
[00:11:38] Perry Timms: It makes an enormous difference if you just call them by their name because it's almost like they exist then beyond the checking in function. And we all want to exist beyond that name badge and that role. We all want to know that what we do matters, like you said. And there's just the what's your version of that?
[00:11:56] Pause and Resilience
[00:11:56] Helen Wada: How do you find when you're working with organizations and individuals? [00:12:00] Because it's hard work, Perry. This is not easy work. And even for those of us that, I'm executive coach you've worked in people fields for much of your career, it's not easy. Because in the fast-paced world that we live in,
[00:12:16] Helen Wada: The demands are such that people are like, "I'm just gonna do, do, do."
[00:12:19] Helen Wada: But actually, for me, the risk is if we don't pause to reflect and understand, then A, we're doing ourselves a disservice, B, we can't grow and stretch, and C, we might be missing opportunities that would otherwise be on the table
[00:12:36] Perry Timms: Yeah I think you're right. I think we've lost the sense of pause or punctuation because it just feels like it's an enormous rollercoaster we can't get off. So therefore we're like, "I've gotta hold on for dear life. Oh look, that's interesting, isn't it? Oh, look at that." And then it's but actually there's only so much exhilaration or like stress and tension I can take, and I think human beings are wired for those kind of short bursts more [00:13:00] than elongated senses of anything, right?
[00:13:02] Perry Timms: So I think we need to have that variety I think, and we need to have that break. And I think because we've developed cognition and understanding about things that we put names and labels to, if we're not paying attention to that, that can have all sorts of impairing impacts to us, because we will feel lost or the, the point of it just seems to disappear.
[00:13:24] Perry Timms: So we end up resenting it, going, "I don't even know what's going on, but I don't feel like I'm in control of it." And that realization is quite stark, because then you're like, "I'm not in control of anything," it can spiral to this sense of helplessness. When actually if you punctuated it and went, "What did I get up today that made a difference?
[00:13:41] Perry Timms: What have I learned I could put into play in the next hour or day or whatever?" I've often said to people who tell me about their sort of te- techniques for the day, that they log on and they have a look at the calendar, see what they've gotta do, and then work out how to get through the day. What's stopping you from doing that at the end of the previous day before you even hit [00:14:00] that day so that you have almost like a little fast-forward into it, and you don't feel like you're caught by it.
[00:14:06] Perry Timms: People are like, "What a good idea," and they've tried it and then they've gone, "Made a massive difference. I felt like I started with a renewed vigor instead of dread." And it's almost like it's just a little trick, but the mind needs to feel like it's in control, 'cause if it's not, it tends to play tricks on itself and find opt-outs and quick solutions that might not work for you.
[00:14:26] Perry Timms: So it comes to emotional intelligence, which I know is really big in coaching,
[00:14:31] Perry Timms: which is do you know who you are and how you work and what makes you tick and what gets you really hot, bothered, and distressed and stuff? 'Cause if you don't, you ought to spend a bit more time coaching yourself you know what I mean?
[00:14:44] Perry Timms: To then understand how you can get through tricky times and recalibrate yourself and so on. But pause and punctuation, like in coaching when you just pause and hold that space and don't say anything, you often get the richest exchanges rather than keep questioning and prompting all the time. We should be [00:15:00] much more comfortable with that silence
[00:15:01]
[00:15:01] Helen Wada: And, you've hit the nail on the head and it's one of the things that, that we work with in terms of how do I draw in these coaching skills, these powerful coaching skills, to commercial conversations, Perry, because that, for me, is where even with all the years of coaching and the, how the industry has grown exponentially, we're still not yet really usi- seeing coaching skills as an essential commercial skill.
[00:15:32] Helen Wada: And that, for me, where we can start to shift the dial. Because if you just take sales for a moment, so take the area of work that I'm in, when you're talking about that resilience you need, that what have I achieved today, that, that look back, look forward. When you're in the mode to win work, grow business, sometimes I take the word sell out of it because actually it flips it [00:16:00] on its head.
[00:16:00] Helen Wada: It's like it makes it all about you rather than all about your customer. Very
[00:16:05] Helen Wada: much fond of it being one. Nevertheless, the resilience needed, particularly in professional services where I'm in, but quite frankly across the board, it's not one conversation and you're done. You're you're having conversations and you're developing ideas, and you're helping your potential clients think through challenges to find solutions to their problems.
[00:16:30] Helen Wada: And the skills that you and I were just talking about, that EQ, that pause, the why are you doing it- Is much more long term than short term, and you need the resilience to keep going
[00:16:43] Perry Timms: But to your point, because we tend to think about resilience as fighting back, don't we? Bounce back ability or whatever it is. But actually resilience is just being able to hold your nerve or, or almost like redetermine how you wanna be in the world. I think we mislabel it a little bit.
[00:16:57] Perry Timms: So I really like what you've set out there [00:17:00] because when you think about what does coaching exist for some- somebody once said to me, and I've held this, if you put a hyphen between CO and aching, you get co-aching. And it's not co-aching, it is problem-solving. So if you're a coach that just over-empathizes or over-sympathizes, you're not really helping your client at all.
[00:17:20] Perry Timms: But if you are coaching, you're like, "You've got a problem to solve. I won't give you my answers, but I'll help you find yours," that's the same as selling, which is, "I've got a product, but I don't know whether you want it, but let's work on the problem you're trying to solve because if that product will solve that problem, I wanna help you make the right choice."
[00:17:36] Perry Timms: And that's what it feels like it should be. Not, "I've got a target to hit, so I'm just gonna impose myself on you whether you like it or not." That feels so vulgar. But if it's like, "What problems have you got? Aha, we have a solution." Whether it's professional services, whether it's a formalized kind of product, I think that must make a salesperson go, "Wow, I didn't even have to push that hard 'cause I found their problem because [00:18:00] they told me about it because I coached them to tell me about it.
[00:18:03] Perry Timms: They probably didn't even think about it until I did that." And then the solution was almost like, "Well, I've got one of them, so it's an easy choice." I really don't know why more salespeople don't do that
[00:18:14]
[00:18:14] Helen Wada: And we're in, we're in that mode where, you posted something on LinkedIn about two months ago and when we were talking and how experiencing salespeople and why in the world today we still need to think about this in a different way because it's
[00:18:32] Helen Wada: still got a bad name, hasn't it,
[00:18:33] Helen Wada: Perry?
[00:18:34] Helen Wada: I'm sorry.
[00:18:34] Perry Timms: Pushy, yeah, impu- y- you just feel like you're trying to be hypnotized or almost forced into a, a purchase because often the tactics are like, "Well, let's just have a 15-minute call. Nothing wrong in that." and, I'll go back to an example where somebody did that, and I g- genuinely entered into it thinking that this might be quite interesting and it was the most over-pushy pitch thing I've ever had.
[00:18:57] Perry Timms: I had to get really harsh in the way I played it [00:19:00] back going, "You violated trust there 'cause you got me in under a false pretense. And then when you got me on that call, you were absolutely trying to clamp me down. When I backed away and saying, 'No, that's not what I want,' your email follow-ups were so full of those behavioral economic nudges, I could smell them a mile off.
[00:19:18] Perry Timms: It made me want that less than I even wanted in the first place." And I gave him that brutal feedback because I thought, "You need to know this. This is not how you build a relationship with people to try and get them to, A, buy from you and, B, advocate for you." So I think there's something in that, isn't there, which is if you don't make a sale, are they gonna walk away and say to somebody else, "Well, I didn't like them, but I know you might, so have a word with them.
[00:19:40] Perry Timms: Let's see if they want... If they'll sell you," that kind of thing. I think we misunderestimate that 'cause the word of mouth and the trust thing is still hugely powerful when it comes to opening up conversations
[00:19:51] Helen Wada: It really is. It's that trust and transparency. And coming back to the honesty, the authenticity, because you're right [00:20:00] if you don't need this, well, then okay. But actually, if you've had a great conversation and a great p- then you
[00:20:06] Helen Wada: might meet somebody in one to three months, six months' time.
[00:20:10] Perry Timms: I understand
[00:20:10] Helen Wada: In fact, do you know what? Actually, yeah, Helen Sherman or whatever. And actually, I'm sat here, what, three years in, just a little bit more now with the Human Advantage. That's the way the business is growing.
[00:20:21] Helen Wada: It's,
[00:20:22] Helen Wada: by building trust. It's by having conversations.
[00:20:26] Helen Wada: It's by listening and learning about what people want and what people need.
[00:20:30] Helen Wada: And there's education there, people are learning all the time, and I'm learning all the time.
[00:20:35] Rewards and Promotion Rethink
[00:20:35] Helen Wada: The other thing, and it's interesting, and I want to sort of bring us right back to where you started this conversation, because you were talking about being human at work, and that teamwork, collaboration, and the
[00:20:46] Helen Wada: drive together. I think one of the other challenges with the sales profession, if you want to call it that or selling, is it's driven by individual goals [00:21:00] that are not necessarily seen as collective. So what you end up with is behaviors and is... Well, I can see your book on your shelf behind you, The HR Operating Model.
[00:21:11] Perry Timms: Yeah.
[00:21:12] Helen Wada: I'm now starting to have conversations with CEOs and leaders of the businesses that we work with to say, "Well, how are you rewarding your
[00:21:21] Perry Timms: Yeah.
[00:21:22] Helen Wada: they're like, "Well, they've got some great people at selling, but actually they're not great at coaching those behind them." I guess, well, how are you rewarding for coaching? Oh. Then actually, so I'm really curious to understand from your perspective, what should organizations be thinking about, knowing that teamwork and collaboration work, knowing that relationships and sales work, how do we need to structure and reward people within the businesses?
[00:21:52] Perry Timms: So it's a really good point you raise about those that have almost like the gift of relational sensing and connection, and can actually really [00:22:00] genuinely build trust with people to, to help them make a choice with their product so they get a sale. Not those that are pushy and manipulative and get it over the line, but then the customer regrets it and then it's a horrible experience.
[00:22:11] Perry Timms: So people who genuinely listen to customers or potential customers and then turn them into real customers 'cause it, it's the right thing to do often get recognized and often get promoted so that the last thing they're doing is doing that. They run a team or they run a function or something. And it almost feels like what a sort of waste that talent when they're then being given human organizing and strategic building when actually their gift is making customers absolutely clear whether they want that product or not.
[00:22:41] Perry Timms: So, so they've got to redefine that role so that they become like the internal academy for everybody else. 'Cause if that's a workable technique, why pollute that with rubbish? If it fits what your organization's about, let's k- let's get more of that going. So instead of promoting them to a role, give them the sense that they're [00:23:00] building that capability in others.
[00:23:01] Perry Timms: And if there are people who are a little bit left field of that and need a bit of help, they can coach them and get them into that solution. And it's almost like, well, they'll also learn from other people then who go out and say, "Well, you taught me this, and I found this." "Great, I'd never have done that.
[00:23:13] Perry Timms: I'm gonna build that into my knowledge bank," and then... It's almost like that's the form of institutional knowledge you wanna replicate because guess what? That will also become your culture. That will also seep into your leadership 'cause it feels like that's the way you repeat your success. It becomes so uniquely framed, people would have to pay through the nose to buy that away from the company.
[00:23:35] Perry Timms: But if you build that loyalty and trust and reward them well, they'll just go, "I'm not going over there 'cause I've built something great here and I wanna see it through and I wanna take it as far as I can take it." So I think the promotion ladder has given us a perverted sense of what success looks like, and we ought to think about what impact you wanna have.
[00:23:52] Perry Timms: Well, let's just make sure you do that then and we'll pay you right for it because if you're upticking our profit by doing great things coaching others, [00:24:00] we wanna keep you doing that and we wanna recognize that, not just slot you into a role because it feels like you've become a VP. Let's get rid of that 'cause I think that would help a lot of people go, "I've found what I'm good at.
[00:24:10] Perry Timms: I still get to do it, just with bigger feel, bigger power, bigger sustainability." Bang, there we go.
[00:24:16]
[00:24:16] Helen Wada: I think it's taking a holistic look, me, Perry at all of this. And again, like I come back to the penultimate chapter in Humanize where we talk about, I talk about building a commercial coaching culture.
[00:24:30] Helen Wada: So it's exactly that, right? So,
[00:24:32] Helen Wada: so on the one hand, you've got people that are great at leading others but maybe less confident in their ability to
[00:24:38] Helen Wada: sell.
[00:24:39] Perry Timms: Yeah
[00:24:40] Helen Wada: but I would then argue is that those that are great at selling and creating those customer relationships actually do have the coaching skills
[00:24:51] Helen Wada: to lead and coach others, but we just need to reframe it. So, so the human framework that sits throughout the how you show up, [00:25:00] understanding others, what is your mindset, how does it matter, how do you act and adapt, what are your next steps, and then how do you use these skills to negotiate? And negotiation is just another
[00:25:11] Helen Wada: conversation. We take those commercial skills and say, "These are skills that you need to lead and coach others." So your sales leaders become those that embrace the coaching
[00:25:25] Helen Wada: approach to
[00:25:26] Perry Timms: yeah
[00:25:27] Helen Wada: ours. And then you're starting, as you say, to build that day-to-day culture rather than, "Here's a target.
[00:25:35] Helen Wada: Go and do another half million, million," whatever it is.
[00:25:38] Helen Wada: "You've got your target. How can I
[00:25:40] Helen Wada: help you?
[00:25:41] Helen Wada: What, What are you finding challenging right now?
[00:25:44] Helen Wada: What are we learning from our conversations with our customers? What's resonating? What's not?" That's coaching style conversations rather than, "You're off by 700 grand, what are you gonna do to fill it?"
[00:25:57] Perry Timms: Exactly.
[00:25:57] Measuring Value Beyond Sales
[00:26:07] Perry Timms: It's actually, there's a broader sense of value we're talking about here, isn't there? Beyond simply the transaction, the sale, and the numbers on a spreadsheet, which is where people can say, "Look, I rescued a potential customer X-ing." That won't show up as a plus on my balance sheet, but it would've showed up on a, as a negative somewhere, and I stopped that from happening.
[00:26:15] Perry Timms: That's just one example. But there's just the social capital that you build, whether you become a good advocate so the company finds it easier to recruit people. There are all sorts of ways to show value that aren't just that sales transaction. If we wanna get serious about how we can be a more diversified and adaptive organization, we need adapted ways of measuring value beyond simply, like you've said.
[00:26:38] Perry Timms: So it's almost like what value do you create in the system and bring to the system and keep the system sharp? Not just the sales, but the whole system that operates our kind of sales funnel and conversion and so on.
[00:26:52] Talent Density Future Edge
[00:26:52] Perry Timms: And there's a lovely phrase that I think Netflix use, and I'm starting to use it with clients too, and they call it talent density.
[00:26:57] Perry Timms: It's almost like somebody has got [00:27:00] disproportionate levels of skill and value for that job they're recruiting to, and it's almost like how can we find more of them? Because if we've got that kind of makeup, we can forget the job design. We'll just go, "Go do, do your best thing." I think there's something i- in the future that we're going to see more of as we automate what can be automated.
[00:27:18] Perry Timms: Those kinds of things are gonna stand out for people to go, "We're an organization full of density of talent," because we've got these people who can morph, and adapt, and shift, and drive, and build, and they don't care what they're called, and we know how much to pay them because that's the almost like the value exchange that we create.
[00:27:38] Perry Timms: That to me is a sophisticated form of organizational sort of, I don't know, physics if you wanna call it that, chemistry if you wanna call it that. That's the kind of stuff that's gonna win in the future 'cause it's algorithmically moving all the stuff out the way and just having people be brilliant people and just lining it all up to organizational success.
[00:27:57] Perry Timms: I can see that happening. I mean, it [00:28:00] might be about five years plus before AI really grips in and makes that possible, but I can see that should be the reaction to this.
[00:28:08] Helen Wada: And I, there's a couple of things there, and I can see that too, Peri.
[00:28:11] Breaking Process Control
[00:28:23] Helen Wada: I think I've got two questions, but what's stopping organizations right now? Because what I see in this arena is still so much process, so much control, so, what you're talking about is a, a fluid
[00:28:27] Helen Wada: adult environment where
[00:28:29] Helen Wada: we're
[00:28:29] Helen Wada: trusting people, going back to trust. But if I think about many of the organizations that I work, have worked with and work with now, they're so embedded in processes and systems that it ... Th- they're so focused on those that we don't see the wood for the trees almost
[00:28:49] Perry Timms: I know what you mean. I think it's the realization that there's only so much value you can get from cranking the handle faster on the engine, when actually you need to go through the gears and all that [00:29:00] kind of thing. So I think there's things like experimentation we need to show a value to and encourage people to do it, to explore and learn and find new frontiers and ways of doing things.
[00:29:10] Perry Timms: The relational side of things we don't even say to people, "You're good at galvanizing spirit," or, "You help other people by coaching them and so on." we don't even bolt that in as much to the reward packages as we should do, when actually that's a lovely form of value you're creating inside the organization.
[00:29:26] Helen Wada: Written
[00:29:27] Perry Timms: The curiosity thing that links to both of those, I think ultimately in order to turn around a function, we need to say it isn't just about growth and profit, it's about that plus consolidation, i.e. strengthening and prosperity. Not just profit and prosperity. How healthy are we as an organization? What's our reputation like with our clients and our suppliers?
[00:29:48] Perry Timms: Would ex-employees say, "What a lovely place to work. I'd go back, but I outgrew it and I wanted to go over here"? So there's something about different forms of value that we absolutely have to tap into because the [00:30:00] stock market of the future is possibly not just what's your stock worth, it's how good are you at doing sustainable, human, communal experimental, pioneering things.
[00:30:10] Perry Timms: That has value. I want to invest in you, not just that company who churns it out. So I think that's what we're gonna start to see, so you might as well get yourself ready for it and understand that your value isn't just mechanical, like you said, and process. It's all those other things that are really difficult to manage.
[00:30:26] Perry Timms: But if you can start to get some inputs to them and outputs from them that you can measure, you'll start thinking very differently about what you want success to look like
[00:30:36] Where To Start Today
[00:30:36] Helen Wada: And it's taking those small steps, isn't it, Perry? It's not trying to conquer the world from the get-go. It's finding things to s- to start. Where would you start?
[00:30:50] Helen Wada: So if somebody's listening to this and
[00:30:52] Helen Wada: going, "Yeah, I get it, that conversation absolutely
[00:30:55] Helen Wada: resonates,"
[00:30:56] Helen Wada: w- where do I start?
[00:30:58] Perry Timms: I would start with [00:31:00] well, I suppose two questions, but from either end of the sales channel, if you wanna call it that. What do customers really value about you as an organization? Is it price? Is it experience? Is it problem-solving? Is it familiarity? I don't know but fi- find out, not just some MPS thing, but get some conversations by saying, "Well, why do you stick with us?
[00:31:17] Perry Timms: What is it about us that keeps you buying? 'Cause we just wanna know." And then do the same thing with your colleagues and say, "Look, what is it about here? If we could bottle it, do more of it, what could we double down on?" So I think those two conversations will give you three, four, five things that if you link them together, you're like, "If we look after people, the customers want this.
[00:31:38] Perry Timms: Look at that. Look at that." So you go from a list of, say, 15 on either side to a top three that join, and double down on those. Just do more of that. 'Cause I think the answers are in our people and our customers. We still try and find great massive reports on them and some research on this. Just keep conversations going like that, and just test and hypothesize those things that [00:32:00] really matter, and just go, "Well, let's do more of that
[00:32:03] Helen Wada: I think you're right.
[00:32:03] Trust Referrals Procurement
[00:32:07] Helen Wada: I think we can be seen as being spread too thinly. And then you're scattergun approach, and actually you do nothing for anybody rather than something for somebody. And it's ...Once you've done a great job, that's when the referrals come in. And actually, for me, that building trust and rapport is even more critical in sales, because actually people are buying from other people.
[00:32:27] Helen Wada: You do have
[00:32:28] Helen Wada: relationships,
[00:32:28] Helen Wada: But A, people move about
[00:32:30] Perry Timms: Yeah, totally. Yeah
[00:32:32] Helen Wada: and B, then you've got procurement coming in, and that we need to test the market. We And so actually what was a good relationship might have to switch, and so you have to be even better at having those building that
[00:32:48] Perry Timms: Yeah. Yeah. I,
[00:32:50] Helen Wada: trust, getting that to the next person much more quickly than you did before
[00:32:53] Perry Timms: Ironically, it's being more human-wise by that 'cause you just have more
[00:32:57] Perry Timms: wisdom
[00:32:58] Helen Wada: eh?
[00:32:58] Perry Timms: about who, about what [00:33:00] humans want at both ends of that scale.
[00:33:02] Employee Customer Infinity
[00:33:03] Perry Timms: And I think that's absolutely it, because the what we are increasingly seeing is the employee experience shapes your customer experience, and your customer experience influences how you need your employee experience to be.
[00:33:12] Perry Timms: They're a beautiful infinity loop between the two of them. So, you can do all the sales techniques in the world, but if you've got really good people experience in your employee, and your customer experience is absolute king for you, those two things can just repeatedly keep you going.
[00:33:28] Perry Timms: Great one.
[00:33:29] Perry Timms: Yeah.
[00:33:31] Helen Wada: It, it slows it. You talk about the infinity loop in a human wise, have that commercial coaching focus that they, on the one hand you have to be commercial as a business.
[00:33:40] Helen Wada: In the moment you talk about how shareholders, it won't just be about the value,
[00:33:46] Helen Wada: it'll be about people, it'll be about community and the
[00:33:49] Helen Wada: sustain- and my hope is that we We have to be commercially focused because otherwise people us. You won't get the investment. But if you can keep the [00:34:00] commercial focus but approached in a human-centered way, then a bit like your three things that you are marrying up from
[00:34:09] Helen Wada: your employee experience, your customer experience, let's see it put human at heart and then we can start.
[00:34:18] Career Impact And Growth
[00:34:19] Helen Wada: That's, whether it's the next generation coming through, that's where we're working a lot with leaders right now, is that next generation, this is their career for the next 15 or 20 Because actually, I mean, I'm in my non-exec role. Whatever it may be, it actually is this next generation. They want to work flex. Won't-
[00:34:49] Perry Timms: Yeah. I think you're right. I think attitudes about work have shifted, and they happen to be the next intake that sort of define it. But I think people like us and people who are sort of [00:35:00] 10 and 20 years younger than us have gone, "There's got to be more to it than this grind." So I think everybody's coming round to that.
[00:35:06] Perry Timms: And there are lots of people who are going, "Look, I'm target driven, but not at any cost. I wanna have an impact, and I wanna do well, and I wanna do things at the top of my license." And it's how do we get you to do that? 'Cause that feels like it's a repeatable recipe, because I think when we're in this busy world, if we can't reflect on our day and go, "What difference did I actually make today?"
[00:35:27] Perry Timms: That's a really difficult position to be in. But if you're like, "Well, I got that over the line, I helped that, I solved that, I looked after that," it certainly feels like, wow, I'm actually doing a lot of things that are adding value. And I think that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, 'cause that's what you look for more.
[00:35:41] Perry Timms: 'Cause then when you sort of get really good at what you do, you can then think what else can I do now? And you start thinking about diversification. 'Cause I think we're naturally curious, and we like to experiment, and we like to te- test frontiers. We like to just get good at stuff and then get good at other stuff.
[00:35:55] Perry Timms: And I think the more we can do that, and the more we can almost coach ourselves as well as [00:36:00] using a coaching approach, I think that's a lovely sort of way for people to start plotting their own careers and not leaving it to chance, not just following the traditional routine, but going I'm doing my own route through this."
[00:36:11] Perry Timms: And I think that's what I hear from all sorts of people yet to come in the workplace, is, "I don't wanna follow a path. I wanna create my own."
[00:36:18] Perry Timms: Yeah
[00:36:21] Helen Wada: I'm conscious of time. It's a great conversation, goodness, we could go all afternoon.
[00:36:26] Helen Wada: But that coaching approach, coaching yourself, some people
[00:36:29] Perry Timms: Yeah.
[00:36:33] Helen Wada: are fortunate to have executive coaches. I mean, what would your advice be to people to sort of start to, to carve out time? Because it, it gets hard even as an
[00:36:39] Perry Timms: Yeah. Yeah
[00:36:42] Helen Wada: coach, it's hard to do that. So what have you come across in your experience that's worked well that people might-
[00:36:48] Manual Of Me Coaching
[00:36:48] Perry Timms: So there was this thing in COVID where people were recruited but never met each other, so they were only on screens. And so a lot of teams are like, "I don't know anything about you. We haven't had that kind of over a cup of coffee conversation." And they would do a call, but [00:37:00] the, this thing came out which was often called like washing instructions or the instruction manual of me, and I love them because they get you to start talking about this is how you press my buttons.
[00:37:10] Perry Timms: I hear it's like red flag. This is how you notice when I'm a bit withdrawn, what's going on, how you can get me out of it, how you can pay attention. I love all that sort of unpack me so other people understand me because when we do that, we're like, "God, I know more about myself than I thought I did." 'Cause we don't often get the chance to do it, right?
[00:37:29] Perry Timms: We k- we go, "Oh, I didn't react very well there," and we tend to be able to be critical of ourselves. So, so this user manual of me thing, it's almost like a coaching manual of me thing for other people, for you to then go, "I need a bit of attention on deadlines. I'm a little bit slack at pressure prompting, then I panic a bit.
[00:37:46] Perry Timms: What can I do?" And then you're like, "What can I do?" And build a system, but also talk to me. 'Cause I think that's what coaching is, right? Coaching is just a really directed conversation with a purpose. So have more conversations and you'll get better at asking [00:38:00] questions and understanding responses. So I think there's something in that which is talk yourself out of just messaging people on digital channels and have some conversations, and you just build that coaching muscle, right?
[00:38:11] Perry Timms: For you and for others. If you want to know where to start, do a manual of me, exchange it with other people and talk about it
[00:38:18] Helen Wada: One conversation at a time, Perry. As I say in the book, it's you build and you learn and I
[00:38:23] Helen Wada: would add to that. I think that's brilliant, but I always encourage those we work with to have a separate note- not for client meetings,
[00:38:31] Helen Wada: not
[00:38:31] Perry Timms: like a journal of
[00:38:32] Helen Wada: meetings, a journal, but to reflect on the work that we do together. And also in
[00:38:38] Helen Wada: between the conversations that you have,
[00:38:40] Helen Wada: and then it becomes your little black book of me,
[00:38:43] Perry Timms: Sure. Love it. Yeah.
[00:38:44] Helen Wada: right? Because actually we... And particularly the higher up an organization you go, you have less people to learn from, less m- direct management. You're not meeting with the manager every week because you're given a brief and off you go for the three months or [00:39:00] whatever it is. We have
[00:39:01] Helen Wada: to learn and grow ourselves. And so
[00:39:04] Helen Wada: awareness for me is number one, because once we're aware
[00:39:08] Helen Wada: about what we want
[00:39:09] Perry Timms: Yeah, true
[00:39:11] Helen Wada: and what capable of and what stresses and equipment, th- then we can do something about it. If
[00:39:14] Helen Wada: we're not aware,
[00:39:15] Helen Wada: we just keep tr- doing the
[00:39:16] Helen Wada: treadmill, right? And that's what leads to burnout
[00:39:19] Perry Timms: Yeah.
[00:39:21] Perry Timms: Nice. And you're right about that sort of almost like switching on that trigger inside you to think a little bit more about what you're after, 'cause I think that's something we don't always think about. We think we have a goal, but maybe it's a bit of a goal that's been gif- given to us or a predictable construct.
[00:39:37] Perry Timms: 'Cause I've often done this with people and sort of said, "Is that the goal?" And they go, "Well, yeah." I'm like but what about your version of that?" And they talk about something, and I'm like, "That's still gonna get you there, but that's not driving you. It's the things you just told me that are driving you, and that'll be the outcome.
[00:39:51] Perry Timms: But your goal's a slight difference to that." And I think there's a lovely way to layer those goals, and I think if you're writing that stuff down, I think you'll find more about your goals [00:40:00] than you're consciously aware of, and I think that's quite useful
[00:40:04] Helen Wada: It's the, the power of journaling and reflective
[00:40:07] Helen Wada: writing is, we were with a group last week and, we literally give them three minutes to answer some questions, and it's incredible what emerges. And for those listeners that aren't used to the techniques, it's pen and paper we are going back to because there is so much science now,
[00:40:25] Helen Wada: cognitive link with actually writing things down rather than typing it. If you're the question to ask yourself, write the question down. Firstly, write the question down and then try and answer it. If you don't know the answer, say, "I don't know what to write. I don't know what to write at the moment," and just let it emerge with some... And blah, blah, blah. Something will come up. And it's
[00:40:50] Helen Wada: quite powerful in terms of the self-awareness. What is it that I really want from my career? Use that, right? See what [00:41:00] happens.
[00:41:00] Perry Timms: That's lovely. You become then what's called a tabula rasa,
[00:41:03] Perry Timms: blank slate. You then fill it in with discovery and all that. I love that.
[00:41:08] Perry Timms: Yeah, that's really nice. Yeah, there's a lot people can do to help themselves, and there's a lot that can then manifest in how they then interact with others. If they're looking to create a connection that might result in a sale, I think there's something really nice about knowing who you are and what you're after.
[00:41:22] Perry Timms: They pick up that from people
[00:41:25] Helen Wada: And then bring it into working with your colleagues, building that team, and going back to where you started about finding that common goal
[00:41:33] Helen Wada: to my end. Yeah, it's nice about that, yeah. Teams are definitely the unit of power and impact, but then conversations are the unit of change, aren't they?
[00:41:45] Helen Wada: Lovely.
[00:41:46] Top Tip And Question
[00:41:46] Helen Wada: I'm conscious of time.
[00:41:48] Perry Timms: Oh, that
[00:41:50] Helen Wada: always ask the wonderful guests for one top tip and one reflective question. A good coach loves a good question. So what would be your top tip for listeners having just [00:42:00] listened to this conversation today, and then one question for them to reflect on?
[00:42:04] Perry Timms: Yeah. I
[00:42:05] Perry Timms: think because there's a lot that could trickle through into the system of sales, leads, or
[00:42:10] Perry Timms: Or whatever, I think just find people close enough to you to practice this out, whether it's a group of three or whatever. So that would be my tip, is to always start small, and accessible, and comfortable, but use that to then probe and go, "What else could we do with this?"
[00:42:24] Perry Timms: So share that experience. I'd do that. And a kind of reflective question, I think the question is often how do I catch myself when I've outdone what I even thought was possible by me? And that's not being arrogant or on yourself, but I think you need to catch those moments where you're like, "God, I never knew I had that in me."
[00:42:45] Perry Timms: 'Cause I think we can brush them aside or not take them into account, but they're a little signal to say next time you feel a little bit like you're out of your depth or you're in a new situation, just remember the last time you caught yourself doing that and see what you can channel from that [00:43:00] into future experiences.
[00:43:01] Perry Timms: So I think that's my reflective question.
[00:43:03] Helen Wada: Oh, I love it. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure
[00:43:08] Helen Wada: to.
[00:43:08] Helen Wada: have you on the show.
[00:43:09]
[00:43:09] Helen Wada: Where can listeners find you if they want to find out more about you and the work that you do, Perry? Where can- where's the best-
[00:43:13] Perry Timms: So I'm on LinkedIn a lot, so you can find me on there. There's only one of me in HR on there. I've got a Substack series, so pthr.substack.com. And then our website is pthr.co.uk. You can see what we do. Happy to hear from anybody, but I'm not difficult to find
[00:43:32] Helen Wada: Lovely. Well, wishing you all the best
[00:43:34] Helen Wada: for a summer, good summer ahead.
[00:43:36] Helen Wada: And I will see you soon.
[00:43:38] Helen Wada: Thank you so much,
[00:43:38] Helen Wada: Kelly. Take
[00:43:39] Perry Timms: Ciao. Bye-bye. Bye