Ep60: How Experts Can Grow Their Business Without Selling with Rachel Harrison
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What if the reason so many professionals struggle with sales is not capability, but how it has been taught? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by Rachel Harrison, IP lawyer and founder of Your IP, to explore why business development feels uncomfortable for so many experts and how that can change.
After more than 20 years in law firms, Rachel stepped away to build her own business and discovered something unexpected. Sales did not have to feel forced or transactional. Instead, it could be human, relationship-led and even enjoyable. Together, they unpack how professionals can shift their mindset, build confidence and develop business in a way that feels authentic and aligned.
This is a powerful conversation for anyone in professional services, leadership or sales who has ever thought, this is not me.
Topics Discussed:
Why sales feels uncomfortable for technical experts
The gap in sales and leadership training in professional services
Reframing business development as human connection
How confidence grows through action and coaching
The role of mindset, identity and self-belief in sales
Why relationships and referrals drive sustainable growth
The impact of AI on technical roles and human differentiation
How leaders can retain talent by changing how sales is taught
Timestamps:
00:00 – 02:00 | Introduction: Rachel’s background and journey into business ownership
02:01 – 05:30 | Why sales felt uncomfortable in traditional law firms
05:31 – 08:30 | Redefining what it means to be human at work
08:31 – 12:00 | Learning business development and finding a new approach
12:01 – 16:00 | Building confidence through coaching and experimentation
16:01 – 20:00 | The shift from technical expertise to human connection
20:01 – 23:30 | AI, automation and the future of professional services
23:31 – 27:00 | Relationships, referrals and building a client base
27:01 – 31:00 | Coaching skills and the Human Wise framework
31:01 – 35:00 | Confidence, resilience and following up with clients
35:01 – 40:00 | Communication, trust and managing client relationships
40:01 – 46:00 | Final reflections and Rachel’s top tip
Read the episode blog here
About Rachel Harrison:
Follow @achel-harrison-9a316619/ on LinkedIn
Learn more about Rheia and Rachel’s services
Rachel Harrison is a Trade Mark Attorney specialising in trade mark protection, enforcement and dispute resolution. She worked for over 20 years in London law firms and specialist trade mark practices before starting her own business, Rheia IP, in 2023. She’s enjoyed the freedom and the challenges of having her own practice and has found an unexpected love for business development. Rachel offers the highest level of service to clients of all sizes, in all sectors, with the comfort of agreed, upfront pricing.
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Ep. 60. How Experts Can Grow Their Business Without Selling with Rachel Harrison
[00:00:00]
[00:00:29] Welcome and Introduction
[00:00:29] Helen Wada: Welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Rachel Harrison here with me. Rachel is a business partner in crime, so to speak. Rachel is an IP lawyer. She's a trademark attorney specializing in trademark protection enforcement and dispute resolution. She's worked for over 20 years in London law firms. And specialist trademark practices before starting her own business via IP in 2023. [00:01:00] She's enjoyed the freedom, the challenges of having her own practice and has found an unexpected love for business development or sales, or is it the other? We'll talk about that in a moment, Rachel. I know there's that. Some things around the words there. You offer the highest level of service to clients of all sizes in all sectors with the comfort of upfront agreed pricing, but ultimately love what you do. And. Rachel has supported me with the human advantage the work we've done from a, the trademark that we've got through for the Human Advantage, which is amazing. But it wasn't until a recent conversation where you and I were talking about this whole business development sales, what does it mean?
[00:01:40] Helen Wada: And you were telling me about your journey, which we'll love to hear in a moment and thought, you know what, let's get you on the podcast because I work with a lot of experts from professional services. And many of whom come from a space where we don't like sales, we don't like business development, but actually what does it really mean?
[00:01:55] Helen Wada: And how can we unlock some of this for people? So welcome to [00:02:00] human wise. Welcome to the show. We're talking about being human. Tell us a little bit more about you.
[00:02:05] Rachel Harrison: Thank you Helen, so much for having me because I could speak for days about this now which is hilarious given that it's a subject that I despised for the entirety of my career when I worked for other people. So now I find it quite funny that I actually would rather do the quote, business development quote than I would the work itself, which is quite the turnaround.
[00:02:30] Why Sales Felt Awful
[00:02:30] Rachel Harrison: But the whole reason I started my own firm was to, I suppose, loosely be more human. For me to be more human, and for me to be able to be more human with my clients, for my clients, to my clients. Because what happens when you work in a law firm, typically not all, but let's just generalize that you are incredibly busy.
[00:02:54] Rachel Harrison: Most law firms don't teach business development. So you kind of, you're, you know, [00:03:00] some lawyers are good at it, some most, I would say aren't very good at it. And. you kind of muddled through your career kind of having this sort of business development thing hanging over your God, I really need to do it.
[00:03:14] Rachel Harrison: This, it is on my list. It's one of my targets. It's, you know, I have to do this thing and I dunno what it is. I dunno how to do it. Nobody's ever shown me.
[00:03:22] Rachel Harrison: But it is not across the board. But that is my experience. And you'd kind of grow up in your career thinking, God, this is just awful. And you try and squeeze it in.
[00:03:31] Rachel Harrison: You go to conferences and everyone's standing around there in suits, and maybe not now, but it used to be that way and you kind of have this awkward chat and so on and so forth. A bunch of lawyers, and it's, for me, that was really dull. What I enjoyed about my job was helping people, probably like most of us, helping people, getting outcomes for people, making their lives slightly better in whatever little way that I could.
[00:03:54] Rachel Harrison: And I didn't know that actually you could do both. That you can [00:04:00] do the nice work, but you can also find the nice work by doing nice things and being human with people.
[00:04:07] Helen Wada: And I love that honesty. Rachel and the richness there. 'cause you talked about moving to do your own thing because you wanted to be more human at work. You know that I'm a firm believer in blending commerciality with humanity, right? This is not one or the other. This is not losing our commercial hats because we need to be fluffy and soft.
[00:04:27] Helen Wada: This is about, but what does that being human at work mean to you? What is it that who you are now, if you think back to who you were then?
[00:04:37] Redefining Human Work
[00:04:37] Rachel Harrison: Fundamentally I'm the same. And fundamentally, my work is the same. I've always held myself to, you know, a very high standard actually, and I would always strive to, to do the very best, but it's more difficult when you are time pressured, your billable hours. Targets are looming. As I say, you don't have the training and you don't really [00:05:00] understand what it means to, to develop business or to, you know, to sell.
[00:05:05] Rachel Harrison: We are lawyers, not salesmen. Most lawyers are not very good at it. now it means I've carved out, thank God. You know, I took a bit of a punt because I didn't know if it would work, but thank God I managed to carve out a business for myself, which means that I can be, I can do a lower volume of work, at the same or better quality.
[00:05:28] Rachel Harrison: Actually, because it means that I've got time, it means that I'm quite selective with who I work with as well, which is perfect for me, but also means that, you know, you don't have to work with everybody. And if you don't like, you don't like them or they don't like you, there's no, you're not bound by the firm that you are working in by their, you know, whatever that you, the regime or the, you know, the rules.
[00:05:52] Rachel Harrison: You can adapt and you've got, and I've got time now. I've got time to spend with people, and I make that time and I make sure that time is [00:06:00] spent so that, oh, I don't know. So I can bring more of myself. I'm not, it's not just that this relentless churn of God, I've gotta get this done. I've gotta get that done in a sort of overflowing inbox.
[00:06:09] Rachel Harrison: I just don't have that. Now, sometimes it overflows, but not often because I'm able to manage it because I choose.
[00:06:16] Helen Wada: something about, I'm hearing something about the time and how you work differently now that you are running your own thing compared to when you were in a large professional practice. But there's something there about the skill of selling. Skill of business develop. You said you hated it, you know it was
[00:06:34] Helen Wada: not something you enjoyed doing. If you are thinking about what do you do now? 'cause you do have to go out, you know, when you are an
[00:06:42] Helen Wada: entrepreneur, and I've
[00:06:43] Helen Wada: lived and breathed that, I've come from the world of consulting and then sales, but actually the reality of doing it for yourself or your own business is a very different prospect. What is it that you actually.
[00:06:56] Learning Business Development
[00:06:56] Helen Wada: Do like what are those skills now that you think, goodness, if I had those skills when I was working back in that thing?
[00:07:03] Rachel Harrison: I know it it's stupid. It seems now to me so ridiculous that law firms don't engage. Sales you know, sales coaches, it's absurd that they don't, or if they don't, some do, of course
[00:07:16] Rachel Harrison: but none of the ones that I've worked in did It's, is all I can say. So, and so we know he might go to a seminar one day or something like that but actually what you need is from very early on.
[00:07:27] Rachel Harrison: The a, a real proper person showing you that sales can be done in all sorts of different ways. And it's not just this one. Knocking on doors and being really stiff, as I said, at conferences, at events, that kind of thing. That, that I still don't. Go for, she says with a week long conference coming up, actually.
[00:07:45] Rachel Harrison: But, But,
[00:07:46] Helen Wada: spoken about that.
[00:07:47] Rachel Harrison: but it is, we have, and it's also different now. So I get, again, I get to choose, I get to choose who I talk to and I get to choose how I do it and when I do it and all of those things. But I got to the point where actually I didn't even know if I wanted [00:08:00] to be doing my job anymore.
[00:08:02] Rachel Harrison: Before my setup on my own. And that was the trigger. And I actually engaged a career coach to work through with me what it was I was gonna do next. 'cause I thought this is, it can't be this it would get to the end of every financial year and the billable targets were there and it was, it just got to the last one, which was for me, 2022, March 22.
[00:08:25] Rachel Harrison: And I promised myself I wouldn't do another one. So I gave myself the rest of that year to figure out what else I was gonna do. Because I think I thought I needed a change. And that process led me to realizing that I did need a change. But it wasn't the change that I thought it wasn't a complete change of career.
[00:08:43] Rachel Harrison: 'cause that's a little bit drastic, although, you know, hats off if you do that because that's also bold and. Beautiful. But it wasn't that, that I needed, it was a change of how I did it. So I thought, well, is it really that difficult? Maybe I can just do it. I don't know. [00:09:00] You have to back yourself a bit and just think, well, I've got, I've done it for this many years.
[00:09:04] Rachel Harrison: Surely I can, you know, I don't know. So I took a plunge. And I set up my business.
[00:09:10] Coach Led Breakthroughs
[00:09:19] Rachel Harrison: And the very first thing, well the, about the second thing that I did when I realized that I didn't actually know how to go about selling or anything was engage a business development coach. Because, and I still work with him now, and I have done that, it will be three years, I think probably this month.
[00:09:29] Rachel Harrison: Because I didn't have a clue and we had a little call with him. To talk about how he could help me. He specializes in business development for lawyers, which, you know, perfect. and he asked me a few questions, you know, what do I wanna achieve? And I wanted time back for myself as well.
[00:09:46] Rachel Harrison: 'cause you know, I was sort of getting to the point where I thought there's probably more to life than running around in town every single day, all at home. But, you know, I was, I remember one day I was sitting in my kitchen and we were working from home, but. [00:10:00] I was on the phone to my boss, I was cooking a spaghetti bolognese and it, you know, over there, my son was over there.
[00:10:06] Rachel Harrison: The dogs were needing their food. And I was just really, is this is really, is this it? Because I can't keep on doing this, but I've done it for years and I loved it and you know, and I enjoyed it for something's gotta just give and I'm ready for a bit of a slow down. And so anyway, so, so that's what sort of started it and then, yeah, so I.
[00:10:29] Rachel Harrison: So I found this coach and he just asked me a few questions. It was also to do with hourly billing and that side of the whole sort of law firm thing. And then he said, how do you bill? And I said, well, what do you mean? How do I bill and oh, hourly? And, you know, this is one of the things that's led me to want to do things differently.
[00:10:48] Rachel Harrison: and he just smiled at me and said, we're gonna have a lot of fun here. And that began our journey and my little journey and. My God, if I'd have known, if I'd have known all of this stuff [00:11:00] before I'd have probably been top of the billable hours, you know, top of the billing targets in my, and, but I just, I didn't know, I didn't know that there was other ways.
[00:11:11] Rachel Harrison: It seems a bit stupid when I say it out loud actually, but I didn't know that there was other ways to do it to connect with people, to talk to people. I didn't know that. You don't have to stand up in front of a room full of people though. I have also done that too more recently. Don't enjoy it, but, you know, and talk about what you do and that kind of thing, when actually you can just go and have a coffee and so, day one, I'm there with.
[00:11:36] Finding Clients Your Way
[00:11:36] Rachel Harrison: My new business and no work.
[00:11:38] Rachel Harrison: I can't steal work, we've all got covenants, so I'm there. I've just sort of sit there and wait for some work. And so I did all sorts of things. I did, I mean, LinkedIn has played a huge part in it massive part. It's less effective now, I think, but it was very good for me three years ago, two years ago, that was prime time.
[00:11:58] Rachel Harrison: You know, for me it was [00:12:00] great and it still does serve a purpose. That put me in and I've seen have lots of connections from lots of years. It put me sort of in front of people who I've worked with before, not spoken to for 15 years, not seen them, that kind of thing. So there was that side of reconnecting with my network.
[00:12:21] Rachel Harrison: Another word that I don't enjoy my network, but that's what it is. You know, all these kind of cliche sales things, but that's what they are.
[00:12:28] Helen Wada: Yeah.
[00:12:29] Rachel Harrison: I also. I also did something that I feel really uncomfortable about. I do it these much more easily now, but what, but I emailed local businesses, local law firms in Wimbledon and said, I see that you don't have an IP person.
[00:12:45] Rachel Harrison: This, I've just set up my own business, love to have a coffee. And several of them wrote back to me. And we had coffees and we met them and they have been over, you know, slowly but surely have been the source, a source of work for me. And so, [00:13:00] is something I never thought, cold calling, not for me.
[00:13:04] Rachel Harrison: And yet that's also what I do. But in my own way that I felt comfortable with. And yes, I was uncomfortable out about emailing people and then sort of going to talk to them. But you do a few of those and then. They become normal.
[00:13:18] Helen Wada: for you there, Rachel? It just, it resonates so much with where I started, you know, you know you are a lawyer. I was just accountant by original
[00:13:27] Helen Wada: trade and then consulting and I now do work with lawyers. Quite a lot actually, because
[00:13:33] Helen Wada: it's, you know,
[00:13:35] Rachel Harrison: Right? I know, right? God, why didn't someone bring you in when I was in there?
[00:13:40] Helen Wada: here now. But actually it, it resonates so much.
[00:13:43] Why Firms Lose Talent
[00:13:43] Helen Wada: And I'm talking to people, you know, at the top of the firms at the moment. And there's a, particularly amongst women, although not exclusively, you know, there's a drain of talent because people are saying, I don't want this career anymore because this is not me.
[00:13:57] Helen Wada: And we get to a point and it's like, I'm [00:14:00] brilliant what I do,
[00:14:01] Helen Wada: but the ask of what I need to be doing right now is just not me, and therefore I have a couple of options I can sit with it. Try it and hate it and keep doing it and doing it, and I look up at the people above me and that's not how I want to do it.
[00:14:19] Helen Wada: So how on earth, I don't even have a role model to do it, number one. Number two is life is very different out there now. It's much more commercial, it's much more competitive. So actually the importance of having the skills to be going out to, to keep your relationships going, your networks to get curious and ask conversation is more important than ever. And then the other one is going, well, yeah, there's all that, but actually coupled with everything else, I'm just gonna do something completely different. so what you're seeing is the risk for business is that they're losing a lot of brilliant talent. Because of this fear factor around [00:15:00] sales business development, quite frankly, it's not just about selling yourself outside of your organization, whether you are in an organization and you are not in sales. I I had a chemistry conversation from potentially your client just now and talking about how you sell yourself within your business. How do you sell yourself, your ideas? How do you sell? Influence others and these are skills that people are not necessarily, certainly technical experts are not necessarily brought up to do. And then for me, you overlay the pandemic. the number of conversations I'm having now with people that you've had people in a hybrid world and learning behind screens, and so the uncomfortable feeling of getting out to even have a conversation that's not behind a screen is even more daunting.
[00:15:50] Human Advantage Origin Story
[00:15:50] Helen Wada: So I think if you even look where we were when I set up the Human Advantage five years ago with a thesis that. We could sell [00:16:00] in a more humane way. That was the thesis really. When I set up the human advantage, coming from a sales position at KPMG, people said, why are you good at what you do?
[00:16:07] Helen Wada: And I said, I don't know. I've never wanted to be in sales. I'd left off Anderson 25 years ago 'cause I didn't want to sell. But then I found my way, you know, after two children and into this role that I loved and I was good at. And people said, well, why are you good at what you do? I don't know, because I've never wanted to say. But as an executive coach, I unpicked it and said, well, what is it that makes me good at what I do? And I realized that the skills that I used as a coach were the skills that I used in the boardroom. It was about listening and it was about curiosity, and it was about human connection that made the difference. That for me was the light bulb that said, there's something in this. Because until we can make it come commit, you can tell people till it's hard. You [00:17:00] told me, you know, you get your annual budget, your target every year. Go and do this and add 10% to it. Go and do this and add 15% to it. If people don't have the confidence to go out there and have the conversations, you can tell them to, they're blue in the face, but it's never gonna happen. And unless you can make it feel like yours and authentically you, the dial won't shift.
[00:17:25] Rachel Harrison: No. And I remember my boss, one of my bosses saying, my most recent boss saying to me, much too late actually. But that he wasn't comfortable in, you know, in big group settings necessarily, or, and he much referred the one-to-ones and, but that, you know, I also worked for an incredibly busy practice where I didn't really need, although it was one of our targets, I didn't really need to find the work.
[00:17:47] Rachel Harrison: 'cause he had loads and, you know, I would do it. And I never,
[00:17:51] Helen Wada: behind that in the, to a
[00:17:52] Rachel Harrison: oh, and I did.
[00:17:53] Helen Wada: You can hide behind it by, which is what a lot of people do. And then when they're exposed and asked to do it themselves, that's when [00:18:00] you get scared like,
[00:18:01] Rachel Harrison: And I'd never chased a partnership role for Rea, not for that reason, although to be honest, if I look back, was it one of the reasons quite possibly, I never really wanted, I had my son and I just wanted more freedom than that. I didn't want those that kind of bind, but. Really possibly. It was also a factor that I didn't really wanna do that side of the job, and that's a massive side of the job when you're a partner in a firm.
[00:18:26] Rachel Harrison: So, so I was quite happy to sit behind somebody else and do their work until I wasn't, until I realized actually this is, and also clients, you know, when you are that busy, you can't give the service to clients that you want to. And I find that really uncomfortable because I have a. I don't feel happy giving half a job.
[00:18:47] Rachel Harrison: And so that I had every intention to do it differently and to do it, you know, my way. Although I hadn't, I didn't know what my way really was until I started and found it. [00:19:00] But it's, there are lots of people doing what I've done and working and jumping out of firms. Were going to work, you know, self-employed for consultancies and stuff.
[00:19:09] Rachel Harrison: With, especially in law, but in every profession we've, you know, we're being chased by software that will now do our jobs for us. And so the, so what's left? Yes, you can, you know, it might be a bit shoddy at the moment, but it won't be long until we, junior lawyers aren't needed very much. Their jobs are rather sort of redundant.
[00:19:32] Rachel Harrison: Not just junior lawyers, probably all lawyers. Everybody can get advice if they want a little bit of sort of high level advice. We all know where to find it.
[00:19:39] Rachel Harrison: It might be slightly substandard, but it, as I say, it won't be long until it's very good. I think. So where's the value in a lawyer? What, well then what are you then you are, yes, you've got your knowledge, but you also, what you've actually got as I've found, is your.
[00:19:56] Rachel Harrison: Your network, your connections, your, the people that remembered you from [00:20:00] whenever, the people, the new people that you meet, the people that you get referred to, the people that talk about you, the people that enjoy working with you. They tell their people. And that's how, you know, that's how it all works.
[00:20:11] Rachel Harrison: And that all comes back to who you are. 'cause people don't work with people that they don't like or.
[00:20:17] Helen Wada: you hit sort of, you know, a phrase that I talk about in, in human wise. We're six weeks out now, human wise, how to lead from within and sell with
[00:20:25] Rachel Harrison: I know
[00:20:26] Helen Wada: gotta do the plug. Got the book there. I still love it.
[00:20:31] Helen Wada: I know
[00:20:31] Rachel Harrison: still love it.
[00:20:32] Rachel Harrison: I'm still reading it, but I love it. It's I adore, adore. I was thinking earlier today, I adore the little diagrams that just allow you to open a page and go straight in to a. A little. Oh, I love it.
[00:20:44] Helen Wada: A guy called Sam, inky thinking did that. So if anybody that's listening that is
[00:20:48] Helen Wada: in need of illustrations, I'll give Tom a plug. 'cause he was so awesome and actually he's drawing me a, an image today for a presentation that I've got next, extra about kind of another one come.
[00:20:57] Helen Wada: But we digress. But you talked about is [00:21:00] knowing yourself and who you.
[00:21:02] Coaching Skills in Sales
[00:21:07] Helen Wada: And so what did I do with human wise in the book and how has it come to be a book is we go all the way back to coaching principles. You talked about having a sales coach. You talked about somebody for me, as I shared a little bit earlier, coaching skills have got so much power in this whole sales and business development.
[00:21:20] Helen Wada: It's, for me in three ways. It's number one. Coaching individuals to help themselves and believe in the confidence because actually this is not about telling. This is not about training. This is not about one size fits all. It's about uncovering and unlocking what's stopping you from believing you can do it. The only way to really truly do that is through working with a coach.
[00:21:44] Rachel Harrison: I agree.
[00:21:45] Helen Wada: number two, it's about how can we take these coaching skills and put them in a commercial world? Coaching has been known and loved by, by many people for a while. We often talk about lead as coach, but there is [00:22:00] nobody really that's saying, how can we take these coaching skills and make them commercial? Because co, but coaching skills are fundamentally human skills.
[00:22:09] Helen Wada: They are the connection. They are the curiosity. They are the judgment. They are the listening. They are creating that safe space for people to share what's on their minds as a lawyer looking to help somebody. You cannot help them unless you understand what their problem is and the problems are getting ever more complex. And actually going back to your point about how do I help my clients in an AI driven world, it's not gonna be in the simple things that they can get from online somewhere. You know,
[00:22:40] Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
[00:22:40] Helen Wada: it's going to be with complex problems that are cross
[00:22:45] Helen Wada: border that are. Plus team 'cause it, it's going to be knitting things together.
[00:22:51] Helen Wada: And for that you need the judgment, you need the curiosity, and you need the human skills. There. So these skills are so important for [00:23:00] those conversations. They are also important for getting out and having the conversations. And then thirdly, for me, what we are missing is a massive layer of people with this. Skills of a coach to coach and lead their teams behind them. So you look at the rainmakers, you look at the people that are brilliant at this. You've mentioned some in your firm, you know, they did it, you worked behind them. But actually, and this is what I'm seeing more and more, those people are good at the selling.
[00:23:27] Helen Wada: The business development, don't have the skills and competencies to lead and coach others 'cause they don't actually know why they're good at what they do.
[00:23:36] Rachel Harrison: No that's exactly right. They and they're few and far between anyway, the PE I think especially in law firms, well I say especially. That's only really my experience. So, but we're tech technical people. You know, we are there to kind of, maybe not anymore, but we were there to to know the law and to advise on it.
[00:23:55] Rachel Harrison: And we are not really, or I suppose we weren. [00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Lawyers as Human Guides
[00:24:06] Rachel Harrison: The whole of my career weren't necessarily led to belief that we were supposed to, you know, hold clients' hands through disputes. But what I do now is hold clients' hands through disputes and you know, everyone's had a legal issue of some description in whatever field, and it's really stressful it, and when you dunno what you're doing, it's, it can be really sort of all encompassing and it affect you on such a massive scale.
[00:24:25] Rachel Harrison: In your ever, whether it's a work thing or personal thing or whatever, it's and we are there to navigate that for people and take that, take the feeling out of it a bit, you know, let them step back a bit. Us take all the badness out of it and just kind of, you know, it's okay because this is what we're gonna do if this happens, and that's what we're gonna do.
[00:24:48] Rachel Harrison: For that. We need to be human for that. We can't just be lawyers. We have to be, we have to be people. I suppose I was always that too, but I, but never in the same way. I think [00:25:00] that I am now since having to find my own clients since. If God knows wanting to as well. You know, it is such a massive change for me in a very short time, from spending all of my career hating it to, to then, as I say, being a bit myth that I've actually got a bit of work to do.
[00:25:17] Rachel Harrison: What I actually wanna go and do is sit and have a coffee with someone and talk, you know, because.
[00:25:21] Training Sales Early
[00:25:21] Rachel Harrison: That's how I've learned and I've gotten, why wasn't I doing this before? If only, like I said, law firms as a whole, some of them obviously do it. Lots of them don't gave from the, from day one, gave their junior lawyers their whoever at new recruits.
[00:25:39] Rachel Harrison: Leadership training, sales training, good training, because I mean, I've also come across. Bad versions, which that just switches me right off and everybody else right off, it's gotta be good. But as you said, to let them almost develop their own way of doing sales.
[00:25:59] Helen Wada: [00:26:00] You are tapping into another whole community where I've got a big passion. I, you know, children, I got two boys, 14 and 16. You share so much though you share about actually the way that you're solving problems is a really humane thing. When things are important to, whether it's your own personal business or whether it is your, you are working for an organization, people are professional, pe, things matter to people.
[00:26:21] Helen Wada: What matters to them from a personal perspective? What matters from a professional perspective? So. It has to be human because unless you understand how people feel, and you've used that word a couple of times, and that's one of the things of the depths of coaching, you know, if you are just in a classroom, you are not tapping into the senses.
[00:26:39] Helen Wada: You're not tapping into how people are feeling. And if you're not un understanding how you feel, then actually you can't really appreciate an understanding of others. So there's something there about that.
[00:26:50] Human Skills Imperative
[00:26:50] Helen Wada: But what you are also talking about is getting in at grassroots level. You know what I see. Where is the opportunity?
[00:26:56] Helen Wada: We have got a whole generation of children that are coming through [00:27:00] that have grown up on smartphones through, you know, some degree or other, they don't even know how to write in sentences. Now I exaggerate for effect, but actually even with my two sons who I'd like to think are quite articulate and quite conversational, will you just pick up the phone? That's like, oh, well I don't, I'll just send a Snapchat mom. No. We need to know in the next 30 minutes, so could we have a telephone conversation?
[00:27:27] Helen Wada: And so when you are looking at the next generation of workforce, you overlay the agent workforce that's coming in, the different skills that we're going to need, the where people are at from the bottom. And for me. These human skills have to be embedded right from the start.
[00:27:46] Helen Wada: This isn't a nice to have anymore.
[00:27:48] Helen Wada: For me, this is fundamentally a commercial imperative that we start to look at these, what I used to be called quite frankly, 20 years ago, soft [00:28:00] skills. That are
[00:28:01] Rachel Harrison: That's.
[00:28:03] Helen Wada: human skills that we need to lead from within and sell with confidence.
[00:28:07] Helen Wada: And another, whether that's a lawyer or a ch and an accountant, an engineer, whether you want to go and work in sport, whether you want to work in marketing, but you, unless we're gonna kinda shoot the population and go, you know, it's race to robot, basically. We need to start thinking about. How we help people think about these skills as fundamentally here for society and the key to growing your business.
[00:28:33] Helen Wada: I mean, that's what it's about. We're talking about sales.
[00:28:37] Coaching In Real Time
[00:28:37] Rachel Harrison: And one of the other things I, I. Having a coach means that there's somebody to answer the questions in real time. So you've got, you know, so as you say, it's right in a classroom, or it's okay if you've got a seminar one day and a coach comes in and you'll sit down. But that doesn't help you next week necessarily.
[00:28:55] Rachel Harrison: When you are you've got an issue. So I would, an example is that when I [00:29:00] was first started my business, I had a. I sort of, I pushed back or you know, an email back from a prospective client. He'd asked me to do some work and I gave them a quote. 'cause I do fixed fee as far as possible fixed fee. So that, you know, another thing that I detested about working in law firms.
[00:29:17] Rachel Harrison: So I wanted to change that too. So I did. And they came back and said. Whatever they said feels a little bit expensive. So I was like that's awkward the first time it happens. It is okay if you're working for someone else, you just say, well, that's the person, whatever. But if it's your business, it feels a little bit differently, lands a bit differently.
[00:29:32] Rachel Harrison: So, so I say to my coach, how the hell do I, you know, approach this? And he taught me through what, you know, your value. This you just explain. You just, this is how you know, how about wording sent the email back kind of. Felt a bit sick for a bit until the reply came
[00:29:51] Helen Wada: comes back to these feelings again later. What doesn't it? It
[00:29:53] Helen Wada: comes back to feelings.
[00:29:55] Helen Wada: This is
[00:29:55] Rachel Harrison: feelings. it's
[00:29:56] Helen Wada: all, about feeling.
[00:29:57] Rachel Harrison: Yeah. [00:30:00] But the client said, okay, that's fair enough. Got it. Let's do it. And you need, again, you only have to do that once to be able to sort of have the confidence.
[00:30:11]
[00:30:11] Helen Wada: And that's where the book starts. I'm gonna bring in the book because,
[00:30:13] Helen Wada: you know. I know and love it. I wrote it but it works. And the more I'm working with organizations, it works because human wise, for those people that haven't come across it, and I've got listeners that, that may well have read it and hopefully you are really enjoying it.
[00:30:26] Helen Wada: But what I've done is I've taken this concept and tried to make it as simple as possible. Because one of the biggest challenges I think when we are talking about these skills is, well, what are these skills?
[00:30:38] Helen Wada: And I've gone around this simple pneumonic, which is human. So the age is how you show up because my true belief is until you know yourself, you cannot articulate your value to others. So we talk about how you show up knowing yourself and knowing your value, and how often do we really take time to think about, well, what is my value? Who am I? [00:31:00] Why would they want to work with me over anybody else? We are all unique in certain ways, but we really need to know how we show up in those conversations to even get through the door.
[00:31:09] Helen Wada: So that's number one. You then get curious and you think about, well, understanding others. This is not about me. And I think that's one of the troubles with selling. And certainly the trouble that I had with it is, for me, selling is selfish. 'cause it makes everything think about me and my revenue. Whereas actually what we need to do is we need to flip the dial.
[00:31:26] Helen Wada: You've talked about the work that you do is helping people. So how do we understand others? How do we get curious what's really on their mind? And not just at surface level, it's about tapping into those deeper questions and curiosity. And then it's all about our mindset. This is not about just taking a coaching approach to conversations, which is hugely valuable about creating connection, but keeping that commercial focus well, is this the right client for me?
[00:31:51] Helen Wada: Do I want to be working with them? Have they, you know, have me on a string? Do I say, do you know what? I'm gonna pause because actually there's an opportunity cost for me [00:32:00] spending time here and I can be elsewhere. We have to keep that commercial focused mindset, but for me it's an integration. It's that infinity loop of blending the two and then it's the well, so what you get into a conversation, well, how do you adapt? How do you bring yourself to that? And that's the A of the human framework and it's, that's when we tap into our senses, that's when we have to start to notice what's going on for us, what's going on for them, and having a go at playing it forward. You know, I talk about transactional analysis. We talk about wise, adult wise, adult, you know, some of us put ourselves on the bottom step. Our clients on that pedestal. And you ask yourself the question, well, who am I to offer advice to them? I've heard that quite a lot but you are an expert in what you do, so what do you need to be thinking about? And then the end is, well, what are the next steps? What are we going to do?
[00:32:53] Helen Wada: Because how much time is wasted in conversation that doesn't actually get much traction? And actually [00:33:00] for me, we can break some of this down into something that people can really get a hand on and go, well, I can do that. Okay that's not Rachel's Way or Helen's way. I can do this my way. And
[00:33:12] Helen Wada: that's what the book advocates is. There's a framework for people to think about doing this, but it's human, it's real, and you can do it in a way that's authentic to you. And once you start.
[00:33:25] Rachel Harrison: Yeah,
[00:33:25] Helen Wada: That sort of reflective practice, which I talk about because you do need resilience to develop business. There's absolutely no doubt about it, and
[00:33:34] Helen Wada: that's where coaching comes in.
[00:33:35] Helen Wada: Again, Mike.
[00:33:36] Helen Wada: It's
[00:33:37] Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
[00:33:37] Helen Wada: need that resilience. You need the support. 'cause when things don't go well or you don't hear back from somebody, you go, we go into the feelings again. They didn't like what I said. Do you know what actually, often people are just busy and they have other priorities.
[00:33:50] Helen Wada: But unless you keep the drum beat
[00:33:52] Helen Wada: going, unless you keep there and keep your resilience up, then you'll potentially lose the opportunity to somebody else that can [00:34:00] do that more than you.
[00:34:01]
[00:34:01] Rachel Harrison: And I have, I remember distinctly a conversation with a client that I won very early on in this, in my new business journey. And I, because I feel very uncomfortable, or at least I did, about flowing up I find it really uncomfortable to say, you know. Following our last email have you had a chance to think about it?
[00:34:22] Rachel Harrison: I'm shifting in my seat now. I feel so uncomfortable about,
[00:34:25] Helen Wada: You are not the only one. Rachel,
[00:34:27] Rachel Harrison: no, I know,
[00:34:28] Helen Wada: It's the biggest thing. I
[00:34:30] Rachel Harrison: but
[00:34:30] Rachel Harrison: He actually said, yeah, and he actually, and this client well, he became a client and he said to me, I wanna give you some feedback about why I've chosen you, because I knew he was talking to two other firms. And I said, and I thought, oh God, okay.
[00:34:44] Rachel Harrison: And he said, firstly, you spelled my name right in the email. I mean, fundamental but important. And secondly, he said, you followed up because the other people, you know, it obviously sent an almost sort of automated, and this is [00:35:00] the quote, whatever. And that is my o over sort of riding memorable.
[00:35:07] Rachel Harrison: If it ever feels uncomfortable to follow up, just remember that guy. And I've never forgotten it because he actually said it was that, that made him choose me. You know, I was important. He was important to me and he felt important to me, and that's, you know, let's all talk about how we feel again.
[00:35:23] Rachel Harrison: But it's important that they know that you care or you know, or listen to the conversation.
[00:35:31] Helen Wada: yeah, we could go on first. There's a framework that I talk about in the book and also in the workshops that we do about really simple, what do you want your clients to think and feel? Say and do and very often we think about the first two, the latter two, sorry, that we want 'em to say and do this.
[00:35:50] Helen Wada: We want 'em to go and sign on the dotted line, or we want them to accept this. Unless you've got that human connection, how are you making them feel after your [00:36:00] conversation? What is it you want them to? Yeah. Say to their colleagues about how did they feel after having that conversation? Did they, did it land?
[00:36:09] Helen Wada: I mean, a number of stories I hear through the workshops that we run where you've had people come in and they've just bombarded it and it's like, well, that's completely ruined that relationship. And we are not appreciating where the others are coming from. And these it comes back again to your skills to read the boom in that act and adapt in the a of the human.
[00:36:29] Helen Wada: It's, those skills are so vitally important.
[00:36:33] Rachel Harrison: And with lawyers, it's people. People wanna feel lots of things. They wanna feel they're getting value and all of that side of it but actually what they want to feel is important. They want to feel that you've, that. They're important. They're at the top of your list of things that you've got to do.
[00:36:49] Rachel Harrison: And the way that. The way that they feel that is by you following up. You know, in my job it often goes for periods of time. And I do tell people this, but [00:37:00] it doesn't make any difference. We go for periods of time where they won't hear from me, and I tell them that if they don't hear from me, it's good because no news and this situation is good news and but you know, but come back with any questions and whatever.
[00:37:12] Rachel Harrison: And some people just go away and they, you know, they put it on the back burner and they wait to hear from me. Some people, ask me because it's impacting something else. I suspect they ask me quite regularly, you know, any news, and they just want to feel and I say no straight back and say no news.
[00:37:29] Rachel Harrison: But remember that's good news. But, you know, feel free to ask. I will let you know as soon as, and then if things take a little bit of a longer time than we think. I will go back and say just a little update here, because one of the main. Apart from fees, the other main thing that people despise about lawyers is not being kept up to date.
[00:37:50] Helen Wada: It's one of the biggest when you're talking about client relationships, again, it's not just law. Let's
[00:37:54] Helen Wada: expand this beyond. You
[00:37:55] Helen Wada: know what?
[00:37:57] Communication Avoids Conflict
[00:37:57] Helen Wada: One of the things that I work with from a coaching perspective is having difficult conversations. Why do we have difficult conversations? Why do difficult conversations arise? Most often because of poor communication on not updating people in the right time because we are scared of having a conversation that could be a little bit tricky. And so we leave it, we put on the bottom of our to-do list, like the business development conversations or the network
[00:38:23] Helen Wada: And then what you end up with is a far bigger problem.
[00:38:26] Helen Wada: So actually the fees conversation is already a little bit nervous. And
[00:38:29] Helen Wada: challenging becomes this whole big Ava because
[00:38:33] Helen Wada: we've waited four weeks to do it. 'cause we just haven't got to it.
[00:38:37] Rachel Harrison: Yeah, and it's too scary. Don't really wanna broach that one.
[00:38:40] Helen Wada: And so we, we are there and we go, right, okay, so let's look holistically in the world that we are operating in the knowledge economy that is shifting rapidly for me. Our human advantage is actually going to be our commercial advantage. It's getting focused [00:39:00] on who we are, what we can do, and saying to all these people that are there going, can I sell? Can I do business development? Is this me? Do I need to shift careers? offer would be to pause and stop and think about what it actually means for you. what does being human mean for you at work? And how can you grow your business with that as your DNA at the heart? And that's where we are. I get quite passionate about it. As you can see. It's like, you know, but.
[00:39:32] Rachel Harrison: That's what it is, and
[00:39:33] AI Raises The Stakes
[00:39:33] Helen Wada: It's, and it's, for me, it's such an opportunity in the market that we have right now, that with ai we can no longer ignore it.
[00:39:40] Helen Wada: You know, the,
[00:39:41] Helen Wada: rapid shift, I started writing the book, well, 18 months ago. The
[00:39:44] Helen Wada: commercial program started a bit before that. But what AI has done is it's just driven it to the top of the agenda,
[00:39:52] Helen Wada: to a place where we can no longer enroll it. But I
[00:39:54] Helen Wada: think that's really helpful.
[00:39:56] Rachel Harrison: I think it's helpful and only, it only [00:40:00] needs for people to be shown a different way to know themselves, to know their skills and develop those skills. It's really not rocket science. Which it did feel like it probably was to me, you know, three years ago. It, but you do need help.
[00:40:20] Rachel Harrison: You know, most of us need help. Some people are born salespeople, but most people aren't. And you do need help, like, like with anything else to discover your strengths and how you can do it your way. But actually just tapping into that and just kind of un. Picking a little bit how different people can do, can make the, they can make sales really enjoyable, which is a sentence that I didn't imagine I would ever say in my life, but I don't see it as sales.
[00:40:51] Rachel Harrison: Of course, it is that, in fact, I much prefer the term sales to the term business development, and so I will use that. But is that [00:41:00] it's also. I mean, you and I connected through a mutual friend that's not sales. And of course it is sales, but it's not it's knowing people and talking to people and being with people and,
[00:41:12] Trademark Story Connection
[00:41:12] Helen Wada: I'm really conscious of time, but I think for the listeners here, we'll end on the story of how you and I met. To show the power of what sales and connection really is at a human level.
[00:41:24] Rachel Harrison: yeah.
[00:41:25] Helen Wada: I set up the human advantage. This is being really transparent. I set up the Human advantage. People said, what are you gonna do with it?
[00:41:31] Helen Wada: Something about trademark ip. I'm like, I've got nothing. So I went do anything about it and then I thought about writing a book, and then I was like, oh, okay. I really like this idea. This is quite a good idea. What do I do? Maybe I, somebody said, maybe you should look into. Getting your trademark sorted and I'm like, oh shoot.
[00:41:49] Helen Wada: Yeah, maybe I should. I looked in and there was another firm that had registered between me setting up the business and me thinking about the book had registered the trademark for the Human Advantage, [00:42:00] or a trademark for the Human Advantage, should I say. And I'm like, oh God, what do I need to do?
[00:42:05] Helen Wada: Do I need to change my business? You know? And. So I reached out to people that I knew to go, who do I? And I'd explored a couple of firms that, quite frankly, Rachel were incredibly expensive. And then I was chatting to a mutual friend of ours in the pub about what this situation was gonna do and how, what I was gonna do for my business.
[00:42:23] Helen Wada: And somebody said, oh, you should talk to Rachel, 'cause Rachel does this.
[00:42:29] Helen Wada: And basically that was it. And then I've become a client of yours forevermore. You are absolutely fantastic. This is a massive shout out to be anybody that's listening.
[00:42:38] Helen Wada: We are the big business, small business setting up on your own. Rachel is IP lawyer phenomenon and has negotiated our way through what we're doing. The human advantage now sits proudly as a registered trademark on my website, and I get goosebumps saying that because
[00:42:55] Rachel Harrison: So do I actually, it's, no, it's no less joyful for me because [00:43:00] I'm really proud of that for us. It's a beautiful trademark and it's, and as we've said many times. It's in the nick of time. It's a,
[00:43:10] Helen Wada: there.
[00:43:10] Helen Wada: There
[00:43:11] Rachel Harrison: a good name.
[00:43:12] Helen Wada: It's coming places. Why do I say that for the listeners? It's because. Know who you are, know your network. Tell everybody you know about what you do. But in order to do that, you need to know yourself. You need to know how you show up, which the H of the human framework 'cause unless we know who we are, how we show up, you cannot articulate it to others, and others cannot refer you on or recommend you to others.
[00:43:36] Helen Wada: And that would be for me, the one takeaway. I loved having you on the show, Rachel. I'd love you to share the listeners, you know, we've heard lots about your journey from hating business development to hating business development to loving sales. Can we say that?
[00:43:52] Rachel Harrison: I think that's it. That
[00:43:54] Helen Wada: say that out loud? Can you say, I'm gonna put you
[00:43:57] Helen Wada: on the spot.
[00:43:59] Rachel Harrison: I can't [00:44:00] say it out loud. No, I can say it out loud and I have said it out loud. Oh, that's really uncomfortable.
[00:44:05] Helen Wada: God
[00:44:06] Rachel Harrison: But yes, I do. I have hated, I did hate business development. I still do. But I do enjoy sales.
[00:44:13] Helen Wada: Love it.
[00:44:14] Top Tips And Farewell
[00:44:14] Helen Wada: In your words, what would be your top tip for the listeners?
[00:44:20] Rachel Harrison: My top tip would be to get some help to. Understand what your way of doing sales, whatever the phrase is of doing sales, is because there's a way for everybody, everybody can do it. And if you are, you know, on a starting your own business journey or not, or you're in another business and you just haven't figured out how to do sales your way, there absolutely is a way, and I am testament to that fact.
[00:44:45] Rachel Harrison: 'cause I was.
[00:44:50] Helen Wada: I love it. I love it. And what would be, as a co coach loves a good question. If you were to give listeners a question for them to reflect on having listened [00:45:00] to this conversation, what would that be?
[00:45:03] Rachel Harrison: That would be think about how, what it is that if you are, particularly, if you are thinking of a change of role, I suppose would, because I've just done that. What. Would be your ideal. What would you do differently? How could you do it differently? And then find your way to do that differently because there absolutely is one.
[00:45:24] Rachel Harrison: How can you make things better for your clients, for your business, for your, whoever your audience is? And yeah, think about how you can do it, then find the answer.
[00:45:36] Helen Wada: I love it. Thank you so much, Rachel. It's been
[00:45:38] Helen Wada: an absolute pleasure.
[00:45:41] Rachel Harrison: thank you. I've loved it.
[00:45:42] Helen Wada: Thank you. And thank you honestly from the bottom of my heart for everything that you've done for me and the human advantage and where we're gonna go next. So,
[00:45:50] Helen Wada: Great to have you on the show
[00:45:52] Helen Wada: and we'll see you, both soon.
[00:45:54] Rachel Harrison: Thank you.
[00:45:55] Helen Wada: Take care.
[00:45:56] Rachel Harrison: Bye now. Bye.
[00:45:57] Helen Wada: [00:46:00] Bye.