Ep68: Why Knowing Yourself Is the Secret to Success with Helen Pamely
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Success often looks impressive from the outside, but what happens when it no longer feels fulfilling on the inside? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by executive coach, entrepreneur, and founder of Lawyer Unleashed, Helen Pamely, to explore why the greatest leadership transformation begins with knowing yourself.
Drawing on her journey from City law firm partner to executive coach, Helen shares how stepping away from a successful legal career allowed her to reconnect with her values, rediscover her voice, and build a business centred on authenticity, purpose, and human connection. Together, Helen and Helen discuss why self-awareness, coaching, and meaningful conversations are becoming essential leadership skills in an increasingly complex and AI-driven world.
Topics Discussed:
Why self-awareness is the foundation of authentic leadership
Reconnecting with your own humanity before leading others
The journey from external success to internal fulfilment
How coaching transforms leadership and commercial conversations
Why creating space leads to better thinking and decision-making
Personal responsibility versus a victim mindset
The neuroscience behind changing habits and mindset
Building human-centred cultures in the age of AI
Why listening is one of the most valuable commercial skills
Gratitude, reflection, and creating sustainable success
Timestamps:
00:00 – 06:40 | Introduction and Helen Pamely's journey from City lawyer to executive coach
06:41 – 14:10 | What being human at work really means
14:11 – 20:20 | Creating space to reconnect with yourself
20:21 – 25:15 | Coaching, leadership, and commercial conversations
25:16 – 30:05 | Taking personal responsibility and changing your mindset
30:06 – 35:55 | Building resilience through small daily habits
35:56 – 40:55 | Human-centred leadership in the age of AI
40:56 – 43:55 | Listening as a commercial leadership skill
43:56 – 45:15 | Helen's leadership tip and reflection question
Read the episode blog here
About Helen Pamely:
Follow @helenpamely/ on LinkedIn
Helen Pamely is a former City law firm partner and Big Law Litigator turned executive coach, and entrepreneur. She now works with lawyers and leaders around the world on leadership, career growth and business development: creating success that is both ambitious and sustainable. Helen is also the founder and host of the Lawyer Unleashed podcast, and has built an audience of over 50,000 professionals through her writing, coaching, and thought leadership.
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[00:00:00] [00:00:29] --- [00:00:29] Show Intro and Guest Bio --- [00:00:29] Helen Wada: Welcome to another episode of HumanWise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Helen Pamali join me this morning. Helen, welcome to the show. It's a real honor to have you here with us. We met about four years ago through our mutual love of [00:00:46] Helen Pamley: Yeah [00:00:46] Helen Wada: coaching and, and Damian Monfort, and have followed each other and connected over the years, and we now find ourselves both in very different places, but I think focused on very similar things. [00:00:59] Helen Wada: We're focusing [00:01:00] on the human side of work, which is what this podcast and HumanWise is all about. Helen is a former city law firm partner, big law litigator turned executive coach and entrepreneur. She now works with lawyers and leaders around the world on leadership, career growth, and business development, creating success that is both ambitious and sustainable. [00:01:23] Helen Wada: You are the founder of Lawyer Unleashed podcast, and has built an audience of over 50,000 professionals through your writing, coaching, and thought leadership. Helen, welcome to HumanWise. Welcome to the show [00:01:36] Helen Pamley: Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here and to reconnect after four years, Helen. It really is a joy. [00:01:43] Helen Wada: It's mad, isn't it? [00:01:45] Helen Wada: It, it's brilliant to have you on the show, Helen. Tell us a little bit more about who you are. Who is Helen Pamali? [00:01:52] [00:01:52] Helen’s Origin Story --- [00:01:52] Helen Pamley: Well, I'm a girl who grew up in a kind of, I suppose, middle-class background, but I went to state school. [00:02:00] I didn't know anything about the city. I didn't know anything about highly paid jobs. I didn't know anyone who worked in the big skyscrapers. I did well at school, I did well at uni, and after a lot of struggle, I broke into law somehow, and I was so keen, and I was so excited to be there. [00:02:21] Helen Pamley: And when I ar- arrived, I realized, my God, this whole world is not what I thought. wasn't human. It wasn't a system that looked after people. saw people breaking down. I saw people disappearing, and then six weeks later, you'd fi- find out they went to the priory. I saw all sorts of things, and it's not just me. [00:02:47] Helen Pamley: I come from law, and that's a whole industry. And seeing that kind of pain and suffering, it transformed me because it galvanized me eventually to do something about [00:03:00] it. That took a while. I ended up quitting law twice before I finally left. In the meantime, I trained and qualified as a therapist, then I qualified as a coach, and then I started my coaching business. [00:03:13] Helen Pamley: That was four years ago. And a couple of years into doing my coaching business, then I started to speak with my real voice on LinkedIn, that's when everything took off. Because I realized when I was brave enough to say the things that other people weren't saying out loud, actually, that's when people connected. [00:03:33] Helen Pamley: My inbox was getting flooded. People were pouring their hearts out. People were asking me to share their stories, I thought, "How do I do this? How can I really help? How can we change the system for the better? How can we help leadership become better?" that brings me to the present day, where a month ago, I launched my podcast, Lawyer Unleashed, and the whole purpose of Lawyer Unleashed [00:04:00] is about the off-the-record conversations you never get to hear. [00:04:05] Helen Pamley: And it's talking to top, top people in an open, vulnerable, and human way, where we start to reconnect with what it means to truly know yourself, to show up as you, to be empowered, and to create a new kind of leadership. And it had a response that I never could have imagined. In the first month, it's had a million views across social media, 10,000 newsletter subscribers, and it's just so I think . It's exciting, but it's also, in a way eye-opening to see that it's so needed because it's touching such a pain point. But it gives me hope that actually, given the uptake, this is hopefully the beginning that will feed into a [00:05:00] different kind of future for law and perhaps beyond that. [00:05:02] Helen Wada: it touches me right at my heart, Helen, because, it's, it's focused on the human side of business, and I think we're both coming at this from a, a similar pers- similar but different background, but similar perspective in that the true belief of, of me when I left the big corporate world was that we could grow our businesses, that we could have sustainable success in a different way. And it's about putting human at the heart of what we do. Because unless we take the reins now and take a look at the organizations that we're creating, the anxiety and the burnout that people are experiencing, we need to do things in a different way. And there's the, the concept of being human at work. Um, [00:05:52] What Being Human Means --- [00:05:52] Helen Wada: for you, what does being human at work mean to you? [00:05:54] Helen Pamley: I think first of all, there's a question of what it actually means to really be human. I think we're [00:06:00] so caught up in our minds, in this-- in our head space, and we're disconnected first and foremost from ourselves. you're disconnected from yourself, how can you connect with another human being? don't have enough time to connect with ourselves. [00:06:17] Helen Pamley: We're scared. We're scared of what we find un-find underneath. When you're busy all the time, when you've poured your life into work and you feel like you're being stretched in all these different directions, left underneath all that? Where's the joy? What is it you really want from life? What sparks your fire? [00:06:36] Helen Pamley: What are your passions? Are you actually leaning into any of these things? And are the decisions you're making coming from a place of inner alignment? for most people, they simply don't have the time, they haven't got the space in their lives to even connect into that. So the first question for me would be: [00:07:00] how do we just reconnect with our own humanity inside of ourselves? [00:07:05] Helen Pamley: If we can start to do that, now that could be in the context of our personal life, our work life, our friendship groups, our community, we show up differently at work. I don't think it's a work-specific thing. If you are showing up to work aligned with yourself, coming from a place of compassion, holding respect for yourself and others, and doing your best each day, whatever that looks like, it's not perfection, it's gonna be a different and better place [00:07:39] Helen Wada: I love that. And it, it really aligns to actually the first chapter of the book that I published in March, the Human Wise: How to Lead From Within and Sell With Confidence. And people say, "Well, why is it different?" And I say the reason that it's different is chapter one is how you show up. It's the age of the human mnemonic. [00:08:00] How you show up, understanding how to tell your mindset matters, how do you act and adapt, and what are your next steps to negotiate. That's the commercial context. But coming back to what you were saying, Helen, it's about the how you show up. "Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom," and that's a quote that I love and refer to by Aristotle, in all the programs that we work with. You, you've obviously been through a journey yourself, and I'm just curious, what have you done to be engaged with yourself, Helen? [00:08:31] Helen Wada: There's a lot of listeners here that are in busy, fast-paced lives. You've been on this journey. You're now leading a podcast and doing some great work. What have you done to reconnect with yourself and your own humanity to find out who you really are? [00:08:49] Reconnecting With Yourself --- [00:08:49] Helen Pamley: To answer that question, I'll go back to, think it was 2018, and that was the first time that I left [00:09:00] law. I had been in the magic circle, and it was a great experience. I'd had the most incredible work. I'd also witnessed a lot of things across the whole city that you can't unsee. And I went to another firm hoping it was gonna be different, and it wasn't different at all. [00:09:19] Helen Pamley: It was all the same things, and in some ways worse, and I'd taken a pay cut for it. So I remember walking up towards The Strand on a cold January morning, and I was on the phone to my dad, and I was in such a bad place. I was in such a bad place because I had so much success, and I had everything on paper, and I knew I was deeply unhappy. [00:09:48] Helen Pamley: And I reached this point, and I remember saying to him, "Dad, I just can't do this anymore." And it just-- it came from my heart. And there I was with the phone [00:10:00] shaking at my ear and freezing, and he just said " Then Helen, you'll have to leave." And at that point, it was like this huge weight lifted off me because it-- I finally got the permission from him. [00:10:14] Helen Pamley: Now, I know we all have to give ourselves permission, but I think something was waiting for me to get permission from my dad. Now, I did hand in my notice, and I did quit, and I had nothing to go to. I'm not saying everyone has to follow this journey, but what I'm trying to get across is sometimes in life when things aren't working, you have to have a really cold, hard look at yourself. [00:10:40] Helen Pamley: not saying you have to quit your job, but unless you want a different outcome, you cannot do things the way you've always done them. after that, that took me on quite a long journey, but my master's, so it's a master's in psychotherapy, but actually, it was a spiritual [00:11:00] journey for me. It was an institute founded by a Buddhist nun and a Buddhist monk, actually, and it fused Western psychodynamic practice with Eastern philosophies. [00:11:14] Helen Pamley: so I went as deep as you could possibly go. You name it, I've probably tried it out at some point, and deep meditation, deep soul-searching, understanding Jungian theories really being open to transformation and change, and first and foremost, getting to know myself because therapy training enables you to know yourself better, which enables you to know other people better. [00:11:39] Helen Pamley: Now, I'm not saying everybody needs to take that journey, but one thing you do need if you are going to start to get to know yourself is space. Now, you may struggle to sit and do meditation at first. Maybe you can go for a run and you find that stillness. Maybe when you're on a walk. I, I don't know how [00:12:00] that looks for you, but you need to find the space in which you reconnect with you, and you also need to start finding the joy in life. [00:12:08] Helen Pamley: If you don't have that joy in your life, then there's something that needs to be reconnected [00:12:15] Space and Accountability --- [00:12:15] Helen Wada: And it comes down back to, to the coaching space as well. And I know the listeners here, talk to they, they're leading busy lives. But in, in some ways it was the same for me. Until we actually created the space by, by training as an executive coach, you're almost coached to death. [00:12:34] Helen Wada: I mean, Helen, I don't know how you found it, but you know, I remember, I remember saying, "Oh my goodness, I've got nothing left inside of me." but there's a purpose for that. And when we flip this into commercial conversations, because let's, let's face it, we are ultimately talking about the commercial world here in, in business, is we need to find a way that creates the space [00:13:00] that gives people the permission to think about things for themselves, but not actually just themselves. [00:13:05] Helen Wada: What I'm a passionate believer in is how you create and hold the space is important for you to create conversations with others. Because when you're talking about cultures and leading teams and moving on from that, building relationships with potential clients and ultimately growing your businesses, one of the things for me that people don't do often enough is, is creating the space to have a different type of conversation. And I'm [00:13:39] Helen Wada: just curious to [00:13:40] Helen Pamley: good [00:13:40] Helen Wada: what you- you've seen in your world and experience with that [00:13:46] Helen Pamley: If you haven't created space in yourself, how can you create space to have that conversation in the first place? And I think that's what, what people don't see or what they don't get. [00:14:00] It's not a waste of time to have that time for you. It's an absolute necessity both for your mental health, your physical health, if you want your spiritual health, and also the health of everybody around you because what you put out comes from within, right? [00:14:19] Helen Pamley: You're gonna show up as a better mom, a better dad, a better colleague, a better boss, and this whole thing around we don't have space. Now, to a large extent, I think, yes, our lives make that difficult in London. I've lived that crazy life. And yes, the firms have a lot to answer for. They need to do their bit to make this better, one hundred percent. [00:14:40] Helen Pamley: We're also our own worst enemy. If you tell me you can't find five minutes at the beginning and end of every day or five minutes in the middle of the day to stop, pause, breathe, regroup, then that's something that you need to look at because everybody can find that [00:14:59] Helen Wada: [00:15:00] And, and you've touched on two things there. That, that leadership from within, that knowing yourself, it, it's the subtitle of the book, of my book, "How to Lead From Within and Sell With Confidence." And people say to me, "I love the title. When did you, when did it come to you?" And the truth is, it was right at the end, Helen. I'd written almost 55,000 words and still didn't have a subtitle. But having write- written it and curated it, there was something there. And actually, I was, I was supporting my husband with a Brighton Marathon. I was in some random travel lodge in Brighton and, and I was like, "That's it." Because it's about knowing who you are in your core and, and knowing yourself. And then the other point that you mentioned is it's not just the responsibility of an organization. We can take individual accountability. And I think in my experience, too often we blame the [00:16:00] organizations that are putting the stress, the pressure, the anxiety on ourselves. But actually there is something that individuals coming through these organizations need to stay, take stock and say, "What can I do about this?" Because unless we as individuals start to shift the dialogue, I don't think the culture's gonna ever change [00:16:23] Helen Pamley: So this is probably gonna be a very unpopular comment, but we are responsible for everything in our own lives. That is our responsibility in the sense that I'm not saying it's easy to jump ship and leave a job necessarily, but if something isn't good for you, if your environment isn't good for you, it's on you to take the steps to do the things that you need in your life, to have boundaries, to stand in your own power. [00:16:55] Helen Pamley: And if something really isn't working, maybe it can't happen overnight, but to change [00:17:00] things. One of the most dangerous mindsets we can lin- lean into is a victim mindset because we disempower ourselves. not saying your boss isn't an absolute, not very nice person. I'm not saying that. Maybe they are. [00:17:15] Helen Pamley: I've worked for some really, really difficult people, some complete narcissists. Now, that's on them, but also it's on me in terms of how I choose to show up, how, how much I take, how long I stay, and almost as well, how I maintain my energy in that environment. The most challenging advice that someone ever gave me was when I hated my job, I hated going in every day, I was a few years qualified, and this person said to me, "Helen, you're not gonna like this, but what you have to do is start finding the love in everything every day." [00:17:52] Helen Pamley: even if it's just you like your shirt that day, someone makes you a cup of tea and you're grateful, you say thank you. You start saying thank you for [00:18:00] everything. You start seeing the positives. You can shift your own mindset even in the harshest of realities. [00:18:06] Helen Pamley: So I'm not saying you deserve to be in that position, how you show up is within your power, and also what you do next is also within your power. [00:18:16] Helen Wada: A-absolutely. [00:18:18] Mindset and Neuroscience --- [00:18:26] Helen Wada: And it's, it's those small shifts that make a difference. When I... We talk about developing yourself, growing your business. Growing business is often thought about as a process. You need to do this, you need to do that, you need to, and, and you're not doing enough of that to grow where we want to get to. [00:18:34] Helen Wada: But for me, I bring it back to mindset because it's, it's building your mindset muscle. It's like going to the gym. I, I never used to do gym work. Actually, lockdown for me was a massive change. I was probably the one of the last people in the UK to get a set of free weights before it all came, became popular. But, but I mean, I did yours and they're still here in my shed with me now. But why do I say that? [00:19:00] Because a little bit every day, and I lost 10 kilos at lockdown. Now I think most people went the other way, but what I realized was that shifting a little bit of mindset and discipline, the consistency of practice can really shift where you are. [00:19:20] Helen Wada: And I think sometimes what we're talking about when, when you're feeling in a world that, that doesn't feel human, that feels, hugely stressful and anxious, it's what's the one thing that you can do? Rather than thinking about the 10 things that you need to do or the big shift that seems insurmountable, how do you build your muscles? [00:19:41] Helen Wada: How do you build your mindset muscle for doing one thing different and build on that before you do the next [00:19:51] Helen Pamley: And that's the thing as well, Helen, isn't it? What you're saying is completely backed up by u- neuroscience, and I think that's what people really need to [00:20:00] understand. Neurons that fire together, wire together. It is scientifically proven you can change your thought patterns. So every day you go in with the same thought patterns, and the same things are reflected back to you because that's called cognitive bias, right? [00:20:15] Helen Pamley: You see the world through your lens. want to start changing your world, start with yourself. Do exactly as you did. Go out, buy the weights, commit to however many minutes a day, start doing that differently. And at first it's gonna feel really difficult, and it's gonna be really painful, and you're not gonna wanna do it. [00:20:33] Helen Pamley: But it's like rerouting a river in your brain. Actually, it becomes easier and easier, and you start saying thank you more, and you start seeing the good things more, and your mind starts thinking creatively. "Oh, how could I make this a different opportunity? How could I do something else?" So you come out of, as my mom would say, the Slough of Despond, and you're wiring your brain to think differently, and everything around you starts to change. [00:20:58] Helen Pamley: And that might sound [00:21:00] crazy. is how it works, in my experience at least [00:21:04] Helen Wada: and mine as well. And, and interestingly, the, the c- the commercial groups that we're working with, Helen, because what I'm starting to see is, is rather than saying, "Come to this day of, training or coaching," or whatever it may be, and go off into the big wide world, we work with individuals to embed some of these coaching skills over a period of time. And people say, "Why? Does it work?" I said, "The reason that it works is because we're building muscles over a period of time." It's not a sheep dip and you're done. I mean, you and I know that, right? It takes work and it takes practice. But keeping that accountability over a period of time really helps. And that doesn't necessarily have to be with an executive coach. You can find peers that can keep you accountable, but I think we all need some of that [00:21:53] Helen Pamley: We absolutely do. The people you surround yourself with are so, key. And I look at my life [00:22:00] now and some of the amazing people I have in my life, and they lift me up to be better. They are incredible people themselves. Honestly, I, I wish almost you could talk to the me of 2017 and have the me of now alongside me. [00:22:15] Helen Pamley: I'm almost unrecognizable. A lot of that is now down to the reality I've created around me, the people I choose very intentionally either to have or not to have in my life. Because as well, I think when you know yourself better, it becomes easier to say no, because you value yourself. You have so much more self-respect. [00:22:36] Helen Pamley: You also have so much more love to give, and I think people feel that from you, and they respect you for it, even if they don't always agree with you [00:22:46] Helen Wada: Ab-absolutely. And so much of it about, is about us as individuals. [00:22:51] What Leaders Must Change --- [00:22:51] Helen Wada: But if we flip the dial for a moment, Helen, because you have a, a big ambition about making a, building a human w-working world, building a world where people can be true to themselves, that they are thriving. You've spoken to a lot of top lawyers on your podcast and in the research that you've done and the work that you do. If you are the leader of a firm, whether that's law or elsewhere, what is it that organizations need to be thinking about? Because there are two sides to this coin [00:23:22] Helen Pamley: I think organizations need to get really, really honest with themselves around what is working and what isn't working. Now, I think in this era of they're being catapulted towards facing these issues because actually the old structures aren't working for law firms at least anymore, and they're not going to in the coming years. [00:23:44] Helen Pamley: This huge churn of trainees and associates. There are managing partners who I know are deeply worried, and in the next couple of years are looking to get rid of huge numbers of juniors. got that. We've got AI moving forward. [00:24:00] We've got this structure which really looks after these top rainmaking partners who are probably gonna retire in a few years. [00:24:08] Helen Pamley: Are they making the best decisions for the Not always. Where are they coming from? Is this actually for the betterment of the future of the firm? We're being forced into a place where these questions can no longer be ignored. And also you've got a generation coming through into the workforce who no longer will just accept, "I'll work any hour you want. [00:24:32] Helen Pamley: I'll break my physical health. I'll break my mental health for it." I think leaders right now, it's a time where if they haven't done already, they will be forced to take a step back, and it's gonna be a redesign. It's going to be a redesign whether they like it or not, and the ones who don't move with the times will not do well. [00:24:57] Helen Pamley: But it doesn't make sense, [00:25:00] and I think those that are in denial will... They, they will come to realize this. [00:25:06] Helen Wada: I think, I think you're right, Helen. I see it as... I almost see AI as the opportunity that, that you and I and, and others that are passionate about this have been waiting for. I'm not an AI specialist, but I can see that there is efficiency there. And what it's done is it's brought into sharp focus the human-centered skills that we need [00:25:28] Helen Pamley: Yeah [00:25:29] Helen Wada: to lead and run organizations in a different way. And for me, that's not just putting cotton wool around people and saying, "There, there, it's all fluffy and warm and cozy." Because quite frankly, business is hard. We want to grow our organizations, the capitalist society that we work. We need money to make the world go round, but we need to do it in a sustainable way to support everybody coming through. [00:25:56] Helen Wada: And I think for me, it is [00:26:00] having the moment now to say, "How can we build human-centered cultures that drive growth in a sustainable way?" And it's a new question, and people need to be looking at it from a holistic perspective. And I do truly believe that we can do it, by linking these coaching skills to commercial outcomes. It doesn't have to be carrot and stick, but actually relationships matter. Connection matters. Humanity matters And for me, those are the organizations of the future that will th-thrive if they can grab hold of the AI and use it as a catalyst for bringing back humanity into the world of work [00:26:40] Helen Pamley: I think I, I completely agree with you, Helen. I think the other side of the coin is actually none of this is anti-capitalist because the structures that have survived thus far have involved burning through people in order to make a profit at all costs. Is that the best b- business model? If law firms were structured [00:27:00] in a corporate structure with shareholders, directors, would the shareholders actually be happy with the way that it's structured? [00:27:07] Helen Pamley: It normally looks after a select few at the top of the food chain. Not everybody, not the junior partners, not even the mid-level partners. The discrepancy between the, how much the junior partners are earning - and sometimes the senior partners can be 50 times. They may have a s- the same title partner badge, but the companies are not efficient. [00:27:31] Helen Pamley: They're not being run in a way that really makes economic sense when you get under the bonnet. To your human point, actually, human skills, relationship skills are more important than ever in this age of AI. Machines can do all the grunt work, so what becomes more valuable? It becomes you. So when we take a step back, actually, the only way that makes real economic sense in the long term is what we're describing. [00:27:57] Helen Pamley: it's not the opposite of that [00:27:58] Helen Wada: And I think too [00:28:00] often what I've seen is these human-centered skills have been under-invested in for so long because they're seen as a nice to have. They are... But, people recognize that it's good for leadership, it's good for teams, but at the end of the day, if you're focusing on a number at the bottom line of a P&L account, it can be taken out. And unfortunately, and particularly with the pandemic, you put on top of that, that these skills have been under-invested in. People are coming back with 2026, and I'm running coaching programs that people are saying it's the first time they're coming back in to real life training and coaching Because it's gone online that, learn through a screen. It's cheaper, it's more efficient. We can get to more people. But then we've also got a generation coming into the workforce, Helen, you talk about the next generation. I've got two children, they're 14 and 16. [00:29:00] My 14-year-old can't communicate in a sentence from text message. He's academically brilliant, right? But we have a generation that are coming into the workforce that haven't had to have these conversations. You've got juniors that have been educated and developed behind a screen. The thought of them going to a networking event, whilst for you and I, if you remember all those years ago, it's nerve... [00:29:26] Helen Wada: We get nervous and what am I gonna say, and who do I need to meet? That fear has now been exacerbated by homework. And so for me . It's coming at it from all sides. That means we now need to do something different [00:29:40] Connection and Coaching Skills --- [00:29:40] Helen Pamley: Yeah, I would completely agree with that, and I think everything comes back to connection. That's kind of the ... That's the key word. with ourselves, reconnecting with others, learning those skills to really connect with another human being. And I have [00:30:00] made so many relationships even recently with people where I just jumped on a networking Zoom call, and actually we connected so much and we stayed in touch, and then this kind of creativity developed, and the most incredible opportunities have come out of that. [00:30:16] Helen Pamley: Now, none of us started with an agenda. None of us. But we both leaned, well, we all leaned into authenticity and connection. Those sound like buzzwords. They're not. They're showing up fully as you, being open-hearted, being generous with the other, seeing how you can perhaps co-create something. And I think these are skills that, to be honest, have not been taught for any generation, let alone the poor generation coming through now who had to grow up during the pandemic. [00:30:48] Helen Pamley: But what we need to learn is how we connect with people better as humans. Stop trying to sell them something. Stop having the agenda. also having that comfort in yourself that you can show [00:31:00] up enough to have a real conversation, not just talk about your business card or what you had for lunch. Just show up as a person, a real person, because you're great. [00:31:10] Helen Pamley: Even if you don't think you are, you are. You are interesting. You are great. I can promise you, whoever it is, if you're in front of me right now, I would love to meet you. I would love to get to know the real you. N-not the bad, not all the superficial stuff, [00:31:26] Helen Wada: no. And it, I, I've got a phrase in the book that it, one conversation at a time. You never know where these are gonna go to. I, I had my newsletter I wrote last week, and it was the story of these random connections. They weren't random. They were people I knew that I kept in touch with and then bumped into, and it was, they had the book, my book on the train and all this sort of stuff. [00:31:49] Helen Wada: And you're like, it's about putting others first, Helen, which brings me back to the coaching approach. When people ask me, what is coaching? It's about thinking about the other person. [00:32:00] As a coach, we take ourselves out of it. It's not about you anymore. It's about curiosity. It's about getting under the skin of what's important to people. [00:32:10] Helen Wada: And that's why I get so passionate when we, we have these conversations, because these coaching skills are commercial skills. They're not just a nice to have anymore, right? it's about [00:32:24] Helen Pamley: It's [00:32:24] Helen Wada: being human [00:32:25] Helen Pamley: I agree with you, and I think the first thing is, is to get out of your own way. That's one of the greatest lessons that I've ever had to learn. Just get out of your own way. [00:32:34] Helen Pamley: what? If you're gonna start with anything, start with going out with your friends or your family or even a work event, just some sort of interaction, challenge yourself to speak 20% of the time and listen 80, and it will change your conversations. It will change everything. , [00:32:59] Helen Wada: It's what [00:33:00] we do in coaching, right? We, I, I'm a talker. For those people that know me and listen to me, I, I love a chat. I... Social, being with my girlfriends is, I love it. But the reason that I love coaching is because I shut up and I don't say anything, and it's incredibly powerful, Helen. [00:33:18] Helen Wada: "Absolutely." for me, listening is one of the most underrated commercial skills there is [00:33:24] Helen Wada: so much to, to talk about, Helen. [00:33:25] Top Tip and Reflection Question --- [00:33:25] Helen Wada: We've connected, we've reconnected over the passion of medium, and I am conscious of time. [00:33:31] Helen Wada: You've just given everybody a tip, but I do always ask my guests to leave one top tip and one question. Given that you've got so much m- wisdom within you, is there another tip that you would offer the listeners, and then maybe a question for them to reflect on? [00:33:49] Helen Pamley: The one thing I wish I could offer to my younger self is to say Be grateful. Be grateful for everything. And if you can, every single [00:34:00] day find three things you're grateful for. And if you can, write them down. If not, s-speak them out loud or just say them in your head. But you start to do that, and the world around you changes. [00:34:14] Helen Pamley: Because if you're, for example, in a team dynamic and you think, "I hate my boss, I hate my team," start being grateful for three things that happened every day, you start to change the way you feel, the way you show up. It's the simplest way to start to actually shift your relationship with everybody and everything around you. [00:34:34] Helen Pamley: And I know people bang on about gratitude practice. changed my life, and it's so simple, and it's so easy, and that's the one invitation I would give. What was the second thing? [00:34:49] Helen Wada: question. . [00:34:49] Helen Wada: What's the question as people listen to this that you would ask them to reflect on? [00:34:54] Helen Pamley: At the end of each day to ask yourself Where today could I have got [00:35:00] out of my own way? [00:35:01] Helen Wada: Nice [00:35:02] Helen Pamley: And, and I think if you do that, you'll start to realize that actually so much that you think doesn't happen for you, you're not lucky, that thing isn't possible. You realize you have so much more power than you ever thought you did [00:35:18] Helen Wada: I love it. It's been a real pleasure to have you on HumanWise, Helen. A real delight to have you on the show and to have seen the journey that, that you've been on yourself, and were kind enough to share with our listeners. [00:35:33] Where to Find Helen --- [00:35:33] Helen Wada: if those that are listening haven't come across you before, where can they find you? [00:35:36] Helen Pamley: You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Lawyer Unleashed. You can search for that in Spotify and Apple. You can find me on YouTube. I'm everywhere. I'm all over the place. I'm all over the place. I've also got my coaching site, helenfamley.com. But it's always a pleasure to connect with people and [00:36:00] just to hear where everyone is on their journey, and thank you so much for having me here today, Helen. [00:36:05] Helen Pamley: It's just been a wonderful experience, and I appreciate this opportunity to reconnect [00:36:11] Wrap-Up and Sign-Off --- [00:36:11] Helen Wada: Oh, I've, I've loved the conversation, Helen. Look forward to seeing you again soon. Thank you [00:36:16] [00:37:00]